Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

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Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Heruka » Sun May 08, 2011 4:35 pm

Sönam wrote:Following is what the french translator Jean-Luc Achard says about presence for rigpa ...




:popcorn:
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Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Heruka » Sun May 08, 2011 4:47 pm

life is short, and i guess it is up to the individual to decide upon whether they consider a ngondro important to realization or not. any teacher worth their salt, cannot know a students capacity, if they say they do, well thats another song to sing for another thread. If one prefers not to, then they can find a teacher that does not place much emphsis on it, or if they prefer to do a ngondro, as was my case, then seek out a good lineage and go get it. Either way i dont think it matters that much, i mean if your upset and annoyed at others because you did a ngondro, as opposed to those that have not, then i would recommend doing it all over again.
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Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Heruka » Sun May 08, 2011 4:50 pm

BTW to complete a ngondro takes a long time, particulary if you have many other monastic duties to tend to.
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Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby adinatha » Sun May 08, 2011 4:52 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:Saraha


It is impossible that Saraha was prior to Guru Rinpoche.

It is probable that there was more than one siddha called Hūṃkāra.

It is a fact that Indian lineage lists are hopelessly confused.

N


Then it's not impossible is it? I like your confidence though.
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Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby heart » Sun May 08, 2011 6:42 pm

Heruka wrote:life is short, and i guess it is up to the individual to decide upon whether they consider a ngondro important to realization or not. any teacher worth their salt, cannot know a students capacity, if they say they do, well thats another song to sing for another thread. If one prefers not to, then they can find a teacher that does not place much emphsis on it, or if they prefer to do a ngondro, as was my case, then seek out a good lineage and go get it. Either way i dont think it matters that much, i mean if your upset and annoyed at others because you did a ngondro, as opposed to those that have not, then i would recommend doing it all over again.


Dear Heruka, ngondro is important for realization. I am not talking about 100.000 this or that here I am talking about the four mind-changing, trust in the lineage and the Guru, bodhicitta, a capacity to recognize faults in you own nature and generate great limitless generosity and the all important Guru yoga. It is important to understand the nature of yourself and the world. If you don't want to do it is just fine with me but it is important.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Heruka » Sun May 08, 2011 7:02 pm

heart wrote: It is important to understand the nature of yourself and the world. If you don't want to do it is just fine with me but it is important.

/magnus


not really magnus if it just becomes another source of pleasure of accomplishment, after all there are only two forms of pleasure in the world, that of the body and that of the mind. if one really does ngondro and understands the threefold nature essense, then there is nothing one does not do in essense that is not threefold coemergent as one. there will be no formal ngondro vs a non formal ngondro. ritual action vs non ritual action is just more ritual action.

this is just my opinion, nothing more.
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Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby pemachophel » Sun May 08, 2011 7:11 pm

Well, I think you are all wrong here. You don't do Ngondro to get to Dzogchen, you are already in the Dzogchen teaching when you do Ngondro. Read Jigme Lingpas own commentary on the Ngondro, it is quite clear. Each part of the text finish with the instruction to dissolve the visualization and rest in the natural state. Then doing Ngondro is not about getting bored a 100.000 times, it is about refuge, bodhicitta, purification, accumulation of merit and wisdom and Guru yoga. Quite necessary things, no?

Your problem with Ngondro is just that you think to leads to Dzogchen, that is not the way it is in Dzogchen, it isn't a gradual path.

/magnus

Excellent point/post.
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Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Heruka » Sun May 08, 2011 7:15 pm

pemachophel wrote: it is about refuge, bodhicitta, purification, accumulation of merit and wisdom and Guru yoga. Quite necessary things, no?

Your problem with Ngondro is just that you think to leads to Dzogchen, that is not the way it is in Dzogchen, it isn't a gradual path.

/magnus

Excellent point/post.


then the point is there is nothing in body speech and mind that is not guru yoga.

that is the transmission no? if we choose to mimic our teachers good qualities after that, then that is all very well, and good stuff.

enjoy

:anjali:
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Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby pemachophel » Sun May 08, 2011 7:49 pm

It seems to me this thread was begun based on the unstated but nevertheless implied idea that one can choose or not choose to do ngondro (in this case, meaning the usual 100,000 accumulations). However, as username (I believe) implied, you do what your Guru tells you to do regardless of what that same Guru tells anyone else or, even more so, regardless of what other Lamas tell their students to do. To me, choosing your Lama based on whether They require traditional ngondro or not is putting the cart before the horse. "I don't want to do ngondro. So I'll become Lama X's student because He/She doesn't require ngondro." To me, that's not a very intelligent way of choosing one's Guru. Having chosen your Guru and been accepted by Them as a student, one simply does what one is told to do.

My Teacher told His students to do different amounts of ngondro. Some only did a very short ngondro which could be completed in about 20 days of retreat. Some did a much longer ngondro which, if done according to Paltrul Rinpoche's ngondro tradition (Paltrul sung-gyud), takes at least a couple of years in retreat. Some spent 20 years on ngondro, doing it and redoing it or doing more and more of certain parts of it until the Lama said enough. The point is that the Lama diagnosed each student's situation differently and, therefore, required different kinds and amounts of ngondro. What was best or necessary for one student was not the same as for another.
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Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Pero » Sun May 08, 2011 7:57 pm

pemachophel wrote:It seems to me this thread was begun based on the unstated but nevertheless implied idea that one can choose or not choose to do ngondro (in this case, meaning the usual 100,000 accumulations). However, as username (I believe) implied, you do what your Guru tells you to do regardless of what that same Guru tells anyone else or, even more so, regardless of what other Lamas tell their students to do. To me, choosing your Lama based on whether They require traditional ngondro or not is putting the cart before the horse. "I don't want to do ngondro. So I'll become Lama X's student because He/She doesn't require ngondro." To me, that's not a very intelligent way of choosing one's Guru. Having chosen your Guru and been accepted by Them as a student, one simply does what one is told to do.


But that begs the question, why? Why is ngondro a bad reason to choose a teacher? It's just a reason. How is it any different from any other reason a person has to choose someone for their teacher?
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Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Fa Dao » Sun May 08, 2011 7:59 pm

Pemachophel,
no, this thread was started simply because I was wondering if there is a reason why some require ngondro and others dont...it was that simple
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby heart » Sun May 08, 2011 9:04 pm

Heruka wrote:
then the point is here is nothing in body speech and mind that is not guru yoga.

that is the transmission no? if we choose to mimic our teachers good qualities after that, then that is all very well, and good stuff.

enjoy

:anjali:


If you don't understand what mind is you will not recognize rigpa.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby heart » Sun May 08, 2011 9:10 pm

Pero wrote:
pemachophel wrote:It seems to me this thread was begun based on the unstated but nevertheless implied idea that one can choose or not choose to do ngondro (in this case, meaning the usual 100,000 accumulations). However, as username (I believe) implied, you do what your Guru tells you to do regardless of what that same Guru tells anyone else or, even more so, regardless of what other Lamas tell their students to do. To me, choosing your Lama based on whether They require traditional ngondro or not is putting the cart before the horse. "I don't want to do ngondro. So I'll become Lama X's student because He/She doesn't require ngondro." To me, that's not a very intelligent way of choosing one's Guru. Having chosen your Guru and been accepted by Them as a student, one simply does what one is told to do.


But that begs the question, why? Why is ngondro a bad reason to choose a teacher? It's just a reason. How is it any different from any other reason a person has to choose someone for their teacher?


If your Guru can't cut through your ignorance his teachings are just words. You need a killer.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Pero » Sun May 08, 2011 9:18 pm

heart wrote:
Pero wrote:
pemachophel wrote:It seems to me this thread was begun based on the unstated but nevertheless implied idea that one can choose or not choose to do ngondro (in this case, meaning the usual 100,000 accumulations). However, as username (I believe) implied, you do what your Guru tells you to do regardless of what that same Guru tells anyone else or, even more so, regardless of what other Lamas tell their students to do. To me, choosing your Lama based on whether They require traditional ngondro or not is putting the cart before the horse. "I don't want to do ngondro. So I'll become Lama X's student because He/She doesn't require ngondro." To me, that's not a very intelligent way of choosing one's Guru. Having chosen your Guru and been accepted by Them as a student, one simply does what one is told to do.


But that begs the question, why? Why is ngondro a bad reason to choose a teacher? It's just a reason. How is it any different from any other reason a person has to choose someone for their teacher?


If your Guru can't cut through your ignorance his teachings are just words. You need a killer.

Hmm I'm sorry but I don't see how that's an answer to my question.
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Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Sönam » Sun May 08, 2011 9:52 pm

Pero wrote:
But that begs the question, why? Why is ngondro a bad reason to choose a teacher? It's just a reason. How is it any different from any other reason a person has to choose someone for their teacher?


But your question begs the question, does a person really choose someone for their teacher? ngondro or not ...

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Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 08, 2011 10:42 pm

pemachophel wrote:"I don't want to do ngondro. So I'll become Lama X's student because He/She doesn't require ngondro." To me, that's not a very intelligent way of choosing one's Guru. Having chosen your Guru and been accepted by Them as a student, one simply does what one is told to do.
.



The teacher/student relationship is not a servile or feudal contract.

If you dont like the way a given teacher or lineage approaches Dharma you are free to leave.

If you find a given yidam is not to your taste, you are free to stop practicing that yidam.

Etc.

If you don't to do a traditional Ngondro, you don't have to. And you can find teachers like Kunzang Dechen Lingpa and ChNN who will teach you with making any prerequisites at all apart from your interest in the teachings.
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Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Jinzang » Sun May 08, 2011 11:52 pm

Yes, your Drikung Kagyu teachers.

And my Dzogchen teachers.


Pardon me for stating the obvious, but:

Dzogchen is an important part of Drikung Kagyu through the Yangzab cycle of termas. And there are qualified Dzogchen teachers within the Drikung. So it has no reason to denigrate Dzogchen or elevate Mahamudra. Both are a part of Drikung.
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Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby adinatha » Mon May 09, 2011 12:08 am

Jinzang wrote:
Yes, your Drikung Kagyu teachers.

And my Dzogchen teachers.


Pardon me for stating the obvious, but:

Dzogchen is an important part of Drikung Kagyu through the Yangzab cycle of termas. And there are qualified Dzogchen teachers within the Drikung. So it has no reason to denigrate Dzogchen or elevate Mahamudra. Both are a part of Drikung.


I think what was happening was the denigration of mahamudra and the elevation of dzogchen. But I definitely understand your point.
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Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Fa Dao » Mon May 09, 2011 12:41 am

I think in this case the Rastas say it best...."its ALL good, man"
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby heart » Mon May 09, 2011 5:10 am

Pero wrote:
heart wrote:If your Guru can't cut through your ignorance his teachings are just words. You need a killer.

Hmm I'm sorry but I don't see how that's an answer to my question.


What I am trying to say is that you should you choose your Guru on the base of how clearly and deeply he/she can show your faults because then the path will have both depth and heart. For sure it is a karmic connection I am talking about here. Choosing what seems like just an easy path is not so clever.

/magnus
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