Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

[tamdrin]

there is no path- "lam med" . I agree that primordial wisdom itself is spontaneously present in both mahamudra and dzogchen and that in that there is no path to follow nor anybeing to traverse the path.. but the path to full habituation of that which is irreversible buddhahood is gradual in both mahamudra and dzogchen, meaning it happens over time and with practice. Of course nothing seems gradual from the perspective of dharmata itself but then you are forgetting all that time spent figuring it out, no? to say you are following a non-gradual path is denying the actual reality of things, I feel...

[heart]

there is no path- "lam med" . I agree that primordial wisdom itself is spontaneously present in both mahamudra and dzogchen and that in that there is no path to follow nor anybeing to traverse the path.. but the path to full habituation of that which is irreversible buddhahood is gradual in both mahamudra and dzogchen, meaning it happens over time and with practice. Of course nothing seems gradual from the perspective of dharmata itself but then you are forgetting all that time spent figuring it out, no? to say you are following a non-gradual path is denying the actual reality of things, I feel...

Dzogchen is not gradual but there is a lot of getting used to among people practicing Dzogchen.

/magnus

[tamdrin]

the notion of a "non gradual path" is a contradiction in terms. all paths are by nature gradual. if it wasn't there would be "no path". so which is it you either follow a path and that is gradual by nature or you follow non path? or a path that is a non path but that is also a path by nature.. Lord Jigten Sumgon pointed this out in his Gong Chik.

[adinatha]

if the master is highly realized, liberation can be swift...

adinatha i would be interested to hear.. what does being "in the state of mahamudra" mean to your mind?

Nongrasping: just resting as mind's nature shines forth

[mañjughoṣamaṇi]

I guess although I don't know how he came up with instant presence?, with all due respect.. although just awareness, or intrinsic awareness or primordial awareness are some of the translations I am more familiar with..

I have no idea. Perhaps he didn't come up with it on his own.

In the past, Rinpoche has mentioned that this is a translation of the Tibetan "skad cig rig pa".

[adinatha]

I get the question. Namkhai Norbu states that the "state of mahamudra" is the union of bliss and emptiness and is the limit of accomplishment of the tantra level. He also teaches about another teaching of Mahamudra by Gompopa involving four yogas not connected to tantra. He says Gampopa borrowed this from Dzogchen semsde.

But wait there's more to mahamudra. My lineage teaches that a stand-alone Mahamudra comes from Saraha, Shavari, Maitripa, Marpa, etc. Saraha produced a Mahamudra-tilaka Tantra, and it goes from there. Then, Tilopa's Ganga Mahamudra Upadesha has its own independent lineage of stand-alone Mahamudra, and it is not called sahaja-mahamudra, it's just called "mahamudra." These two lineages of pith instructions are lumped together in the Ganga Mahamudra Upadesha instructions. There, no mention of Four Yogas of Mahamudra is ever made. Mahamudra is introduced as nature of mind, then as thought, then as appearances. In Lord Jigten Sumgon's teaching "The Co-Emergent Unification" (which is translated in English), there are no four yogas and follows the outline I just made.

Then there is an older tradition of instantaneous mahamudra that is not taught anymore, but is subsumed within Longchenpa's interpretation of immediate Atiyoga taught in his Treasuries. The lineage here is hard to piece together, but it's clear Saraha had it, and Taranatha indicates it passed to Padmasambhava. Because Longchenpa gather the Nyingthig Yabshi it stands to reason that Longchenpa at least got the essence, because his treasuries are a manifestation of this knowledge in the form of a kind of mind treasure. To understand sahaja-mahamudra you have to understand Saraha's King Doha, and then it's clear it does not come from Dzogchen semsde. It's quite different.

Saraha presents "four symbols of Mahamudra." The first symbol is nonmeditation: recognizing the nature of mind and continuing effortlessly. The second is mindfulness: it is not a mindfulness as such, but is a direct perception that all is illusory display; and this realization comes involuntarily once the guru's blessings arrive. The third is the unborn: that mindness is uncreated. The fourth is beyond the intellect: that every appearances of samsara and nirvana is subsumed under one through three (aka inseparability). These are not stages that happen in order. These are simultaneous aspects of one Maha Mudra of reality as such. Only here can we truly speak of an Ati and Maha Mudra that are inseparable as instantaneousness. All the other divisions and combinations of Dzogchen and Mahamudra are sort of nice sentiment of brotherliness, but the paths are very different.

This is very different than one-pointedness, simplicity, one-taste and nonmeditation in the Four Yogas of Mahamudra from Gampopa which does indeed resemble the four contemplations of Dzogchen Semde. And it does lend itself in the Dakpo Kagyu instructions on Mahamudra as in Dakpo Tashi Namgyal's "Clarifying the Natural State" to a step by step approach. But this is not the essence of mahamudra. This is a training device that Gampopa came up with based on Mila's dohas and his own experience and wish to teach Mahamudra as a stand-alone system to all his disciples. He came up with this training regimen that didn't require yoga practice. Gampopa felt that older disciples could not take advantage of tummo, and he didn't want them to be at a disadvantage. He says he actually disobeyed Milarepa by teaching this way.

The true sahaja-mahamudra is only possible with an exceptional guru and an exceptional disciple. There must be extraordinary trust and then the blessings provide the mind transmission and all the instructions take effect from the cave of the guru's omniscience. This level of initiation can happen within a guru yoga practice that is connected to this lineage. Here you are initiated into the extreme limit of accomplishment through the guru's blessing alone. Thus it is "no path." It is fruit in ya face

[Paul]

I guess although I don't know how he came up with instant presence?, with all due respect.. although just awareness, or intrinsic awareness or primordial awareness are some of the translations I am more familiar with..

I have no idea. Perhaps he didn't come up with it on his own.
Yes I know those translations (although primordial awareness is ye shes). Awareness for me personally is probably the worst translation. The dog outside has awareness too but I doubt he has any clue about rig pa. To be fair, I actually don't like instant presence that much either. But at least it's not such an oft used common word like awareness and so is more easily distinguishable.

I dunno either man.. I think that primordial awareness is O.k. for rigpa meaning wise and that ye shes would be good as "primordial wisdom" with sherab as "wisdom"..

RE: "instant presence" - there's a very interesting discussion I linked to in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=3132

[tamdrin]

I get the question. Namkhai Norbu states that the "state of mahamudra" is the union of bliss and emptiness and is the limit of accomplishment of the tantra level. He also teaches about another teaching of Mahamudra by Gompopa involving four yogas not connected to tantra. He says Gampopa borrowed this from Dzogchen semsde.

But wait there's more to mahamudra. My lineage teaches that a stand-alone Mahamudra comes from Saraha, Shavari, Maitripa, Marpa, etc. Saraha produced a Mahamudra-tilaka Tantra, and it goes from there. Then, Tilopa's Ganga Mahamudra Upadesha has its own independent lineage of stand-alone Mahamudra, and it is not called sahaja-mahamudra, it's just called "mahamudra." These two lineages of pith instructions are lumped together in the Ganga Mahamudra Upadesha instructions. There, no mention of Four Yogas of Mahamudra is ever made. Mahamudra is introduced as nature of mind, then as thought, then as appearances. In Lord Jigten Sumgon's teaching "The Co-Emergent Unification" (which is translated in English), there are no four yogas and follows the outline I just made.

Then there is an older tradition of instantaneous mahamudra that is not taught anymore, but is subsumed within Longchenpa's interpretation of immediate Atiyoga taught in his Treasuries. The lineage here is hard to piece together, but it's clear Saraha had it, and Taranatha indicates it passed to Padmasambhava. Because Longchenpa gather the Nyingthig Yabshi it stands to reason that Longchenpa at least got the essence, because his treasuries are a manifestation of this knowledge in the form of a kind of mind treasure. To understand sahaja-mahamudra you have to understand Saraha's King Doha, and then it's clear it does not come from Dzogchen semsde. It's quite different.



Saraha presents "four symbols of Mahamudra." The first symbol is nonmeditation: recognizing the nature of mind and continuing effortlessly. The second is mindfulness: it is not a mindfulness as such, but is a direct perception that all is illusory display; and this realization comes involuntarily once the guru's blessings arrive. The third is the unborn: that mindness is uncreated. The fourth is beyond the intellect: that every appearances of samsara and nirvana is subsumed under one through three (aka inseparability). These are not stages that happen in order. These are simultaneous aspects of one Maha Mudra of reality as such. Only here can we truly speak of an Ati and Maha Mudra that are inseparable as instantaneousness. All the other divisions and combinations of Dzogchen and Mahamudra are sort of nice sentiment of brotherliness, but the paths are very different.

This is very different than one-pointedness, simplicity, one-taste and nonmeditation in the Four Yogas of Mahamudra from Gampopa which does indeed resemble the four contemplations of Dzogchen Semde. And it does lend itself in the Dakpo Kagyu instructions on Mahamudra as in Dakpo Tashi Namgyal's "Clarifying the Natural State" to a step by step approach. But this is not the essence of mahamudra. This is a training device that Gampopa came up with based on Mila's dohas and his own experience and wish to teach Mahamudra as a stand-alone system to all his disciples. He came up with this training regimen that didn't require yoga practice. Gampopa felt that older disciples could not take advantage of tummo, and he didn't want them to be at a disadvantage. He says he actually disobeyed Milarepa by teaching this way.

The true sahaja-mahamudra is only possible with an exceptional guru and an exceptional disciple. There must be extraordinary trust and then the blessings provide the mind transmission and all the instructions take effect from the cave of the guru's omniscience. This level of initiation can happen within a guru yoga practice that is connected to this lineage. Here you are initiated into the extreme limit of accomplishment through the guru's blessing alone. Thus it is "no path." It is fruit in ya face

Yes my sentiment all alone, well said!

[username]

To state Longchenpa got realized by mahamudra Dohas of Sarah and wrote his treasuries based on that and then rebranded them as Dzogchen is another chaotic fantasy.

...

Spontaneous Arrival at the Level of the Great
Assembly of Sacred Letter Wheels
Highly intelligent people understanding the meaning of originally pure and awakened form from the beginning as originally pure and awakened from the beginning reject the regular course of study and practice because effective conditionning of the mind in the way of the buddhas is a long and slow process. Common minds listening to the secret teaching, regardless of how they interpret its substance, cannot reach true and profound confidence. Ordinary devotional minds with weak comprehension fail to perceive the true and profound in the teaching, and after experiencing delusory phenomena in their meditation, they believe that other practitioners have experiences similar to their own. They then curse others as liars, reviling superior beings. Adopting disputatious attitudes they insist upon a more secret vehicle to obtain the ultimate secret. Since there are so many obstacles to spontaneous recognition, until the intellect has evolved to intuitively understand the meaning of pure and awakened from the beginning as pure and awakened from the beginning, the preceptor should exhaustively teach the student the defects of samsara, the qualities of nirvana, and skill in the techniques of every lower approach to buddhahood, even though the disciple's eventual goal is to go beyond the lower methods. The preceptor should not initiate the many students who fail in this preliminary work and prove unworthy.

- Padmasambhava - Secret instruction in a garland of vision

[adinatha]

To state Longchenpa got realized by mahamudra Dohas of Sarah and wrote his treasuries based on that and then rebranded them as Dzogchen is another chaotic fantasy.

All I'm saying is that Longchenpa's realization is similar to Saraha's, and there is a connection. You don't have to fly off the rails.

[username]

To state Longchenpa got realized by mahamudra Dohas of Sarah and wrote his treasuries based on that and then rebranded them as Dzogchen is another chaotic fantasy.

All I'm saying is that Longchenpa's realization is similar to Saraha's, and there is a connection. You don't have to fly off the rails.

Not true. This is what was written:

Then there is an older tradition of instantaneous mahamudra that is not taught anymore, but is subsumed within Longchenpa's interpretation of immediate Atiyoga taught in his Treasuries. The lineage here is hard to piece together, but it's clear Saraha had it, and Taranatha indicates it passed to Padmasambhava. Because Longchenpa gather the Nyingthig Yabshi it stands to reason that Longchenpa at least got the essence, because his treasuries are a manifestation of this knowledge in the form of a kind of mind treasure.

Secondly a lot of nature of mind teachings come from terma. It is a gross defamation to call mind termas as some teachings deemed appropriate and expedient not to mention dishonestly switched and rebranded vehicles some of which are then packaged as dgongs gter.

Thirdly most terma were entrusted by Padmasambhava mainly to Yeshe Tsogyal and she hid them over many decades. But in the case of Longchenpa when King Trisong's eight year old daughter Pema Sel died he was devastated. Padmasambhava brought her back to life with drawing the syllable Nri over her heart and catching her consciousness back into the body. Then after a while he opened up her chest and placed his terma personally there and closed her chest and other accounts say he transferred them into her by the rare mind to mind method. Pema Ledrel Tsal was her tulku recovering Khandro Nyinthig treasure from Daklha Tramo Drak rock in Dakpo where it was also hidden. (S)he was reborn as Longchenpa with more mind termas. For when the time was right for both branches of Dzogchen teachings to be revealed, not just Vima nyingthig, and even harmonized by Longchenpa. These are basics everyone knows.

Fourthly, chaotically going off tangent in all wild directions in many recent threads seems to have become habitual. This thread is about Dzogchen with or without ngondro. The button for posting new threads should be used more in order to have a more stable, orderly and calm framework.

I suggest rereading the quoted diagnosis by Padmasambhava.

[Sönam]

to intuitively understand the meaning of pure and awakened from the beginning as pure and awakened from the beginning

... this is all the difficult simplicity of Dzogchen

[Malcolm]

The difference between "tantric Ngondro" and "dzogchen Ngondro" as I have seen it presented in longchen nyingthig and drikung yangzab is mere chose of words- it is stylistic more than anything (not talking about rushen etc..)

Longchen Nyingthig ngondro is outer ngondro. The inner ngondro of Longchen Nyinthig, the actual Dzogchen ngondro, is called "Stairway of Liberation" i.e. the seven mind trainings, rushan, etc.

[adinatha]

Not true. This is what was written:

Then there is an older tradition of instantaneous mahamudra that is not taught anymore, but is subsumed within Longchenpa's interpretation of immediate Atiyoga taught in his Treasuries. The lineage here is hard to piece together, but it's clear Saraha had it, and Taranatha indicates it passed to Padmasambhava. Because Longchenpa gather the Nyingthig Yabshi it stands to reason that Longchenpa at least got the essence, because his treasuries are a manifestation of this knowledge in the form of a kind of mind treasure.

Showing me what I wrote just seems to buttress what I already said.

Secondly a lot of nature of mind teachings come from terma. It is a gross defamation to call mind termas as some teachings deemed appropriate and expedient not to mention dishonestly switched and rebranded vehicles some of which are then packaged as dgongs gter.

Huh? I don't follow this at all. Sorry. Don't termas originate with Padmasambhava? I'm saying Taranatha indicates a connection between Saraha and Padmasambhava. That's hardly some defamation. Seriously. You are not on the rails yet.

Thirdly most terma were entrusted by Padmasambhava mainly to Yeshe Tsogyal and she hid them over many decades. But in the case of Longchenpa when King Trisong's eight year old daughter Pema Sel died he was devastated. Padmasambhava brought her back to life with drawing the syllable Nri over her heart and catching her consciousness back into the body. Then after a while he opened up her chest and placed his terma personally there and closed her chest and other accounts say he transferred them into her by the rare mind to mind method. Pema Ledrel Tsal was her tulku recovering Khandro Nyinthig treasure from Daklha Tramo Drak rock in Dakpo where it was also hidden. (S)he was reborn as Longchenpa with more mind termas. For when the time was right for both branches of Dzogchen teachings to be revealed, not just Vima nyingthig, and even harmonized by Longchenpa. These are basics everyone knows.

You are proving my point beautifully. These are the facts that show how a connection between Padmasambhava and Longchenpa exists. Taranatha connects Saraha to Padmasambhava. Saraha is not some chump change buddy. Saraha is often described as the original Mahasiddha.

Fourthly, chaotically going off tangent in all wild directions in many recent threads seems to have become habitual. This thread is about Dzogchen with or without ngondro. The button for posting new threads should be used more in order to have a more stable, orderly and calm framework.

I suggest rereading the quoted diagnosis by Padmasambhava.

[/quote]

I'm calm. I was merely pointing out how mind practice like Dzogchen or Mahamudra without Ngondro has a precedent apart from Namkhai Norbu. This is to help lend it support. That you took it as an affront is an interesting development that takes this thread off course.

All the best...

[Malcolm]

ChNNR uses the term "presence"...

Is ChNN's translation of dran pa i.e. mindfulness.

[Malcolm]

Yes my sentiment all alone, well said!

This is because you and adinatha are both Drikung Kagyus.

Anyway, Adzom Drugpa presents the four yogas of mahamūdra as sems sde in his major commentary on Dzogchen, as does Tulku Orgyen.

Even so, four the yogas are not really the same as the four samadhis of sems sde.

[Malcolm]

Then there is an older tradition of instantaneous mahamudra that is not taught anymore, but is subsumed within Longchenpa's interpretation of immediate Atiyoga taught in his Treasuries.

No, not even slightly.

The true sahaja-mahamudra is only possible with an exceptional guru and an exceptional disciple.

This is why Dzogchen is better. It can be demonstrated to anyone.

[Malcolm]

Huh? I don't follow this at all. Sorry. Don't termas originate with Padmasambhava?

No, not all.Vima Nyinthig is in a large part Chetsun Senge Wangchuk's terma -- no relationship to Padmasambhava at all.

[tamdrin]

Then there is an older tradition of instantaneous mahamudra that is not taught anymore, but is subsumed within Longchenpa's interpretation of immediate Atiyoga taught in his Treasuries.

No, not even slightly.

The true sahaja-mahamudra is only possible with an exceptional guru and an exceptional disciple.

This is why Dzogchen is better. It can be demonstrated to anyone.

One is not better than the other that is ridiculous.. You don't have to be that devoted adinatha. your Guru has to get you at the right moment that is all.. He is practically shoving the wisdom of the direct perception of emptiness down your throat!

[Malcolm]

One is not better than the other that is ridiculous..

Yes, people who feel that way never become Dzogchen practitioners. Why would they?