Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Jikan » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:12 pm

nocompass wrote:Nooo Jikan! :)

I didn't say "saving face"... I said, "saw my own face", as in, "recognizing my own nature". I've often come across "to see one's own face" used as a euphamism for recognizing one's own nature, and that was my meaning.

Sorry for the misunderstanding there, because your response really was quite helpful. Also, my wording about Direct Introduction was poor.. my meaning there really was unclear. I can see why you read it that way.

:namaste:


Oh, I'm so sorry! I'm adjusting to a new pair of glasses and getting everything all wrong. Please accept my apologies for misreading you AGAIN.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:36 pm

T. Chokyi wrote:
Pero wrote:
This gave me pause and now I think that when I said that he says you can't get it from a recording he might have been talking about direct introduction only.



T. Chokyi wrote:
How many times have we heard Rinpoche say that he is "giving the lung again" because someone wrote him an email and requested the lung because they missed it when he gave it the first time. Time after time, so many webcasts he has done this. He didn't say "I gave the lung yesterday, and for those that missed, get it from the replay".

:shrug:



Pero wrote:Maybe because not everyone can listen to replays haha. In any case, I'll be proceeding as before but I think when in doubt it's best to just ask Rinpoche.



I'm glad you are proceeding as before... this is a good idea, and of course Rinpoche has the answer, but when you ask the question it is important how you word it. I hope some of my brothers and sisters of The Vajra can benefit from Rinpoche's very clear reply:

4/9/2013 10:39:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time

Dear Rinpoche,

I hope you are in excellent health.
I have a question that I thought I knew the answer to, but now I have a doubt.

When all the practitioners listen to the webcast and you are on live and giving Lung for practices
this is the time we get that lungs, the transmission, this is what I understood, is this correct, or
is it possible to get the lung from the replays?

I am not asking this question for just for myself, there are students of yours I practice with who have been
with you longer than myself that say to me you can get the lung from the replay, I want to know from
you, are they getting it from the replay and I am not getting it or is it your intention that
we are in the same space and time when you are on live and then we are receiving your transmission.

I appreciate your guidance Rinpoche, I want no confusion on any of your teachings.

Thankyou, Blessings for your good health,
T. Chokyi


Answer from Rinpoche:

4/10/2013 10:19:49 A.M.

Dear T. Chokyi,

You can't the lung from replay.

The principle of receiving transmission works because Master and students are on the same moment on the same state.

Ciao ciao!!! NN.


Dear Rinpoche,

Openhearted kindness is the key point to be fostered as a fundamental principle of the Dzogchen Community, if you want the Community to grow and be successful.

Then everything will go well.

The key point of openhearted kindness is providing equal access to your precious Teachings.

Then everything will go well.

Once someone has become a member of the Dzogchen Community, a path to full and equal access to ALL your precious teachings, and practices, can be allowed and easily provided, for both now and in the future.

Whether the "permissions" are obtained by attending a physical wang or lung, web based World-Wide Transmission, a "live lung" web cast, or in a verified dream, doesn't matter. The key point is that every practitioner member be allowed the same easy access to all the Teachings.

This is the key point of open-hearted kindness. Then no one can feel higher or lower than anyone else, and everyone will collaborate to help all members get the benefit of your precious Teachings.

With equal access to the precious Teachings, being allowed, then the clear purpose of any center, or any activity, of the DC, is to provide that access.

Equal access can be in the form of low-cost photo-copy transcripts of Teachings (all of the Teachings), low cost recordings of Teachings (all of the Teachings), and through easy access to experienced practitioners, through email, web-based, and actual traditional courses at the Gars and lings. Equal access can also include an easy, low cost, on-going, access path to the Santi Maha Sangha trainings and teachers, both web and physical course based.

Your amazing Collected Works need to be preserved as the luminous hearts of practitioners, not just as paper and plastic in a library of the wealthy or privileged few.

THIS IS THE ESSENCE OF OPENHEARTED KINDNESS.

Then everything will go well.

With GREAT good wishes for your long life, in good health, and with success in all things.

oldbob

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:37 pm

oldbob wrote:Dear Rinpoche,

Openhearted kindness is the key point to be fostered as a fundamental principle of the Dzogchen Community, if you want the Community to grow and be successful.
.
.
.
THIS IS THE ESSENCE OF OPENHEARTED KINDNESS.

Then everything will go well.


Oldbob, it seems to me that you think you know better than Rinpoche, so you are trying to give him a lesson about "openhearted kindness" now.
But honestly, why don't you write directly to your Guru, and/or SSI which was created by ChNNR himself, instead of giving this public performance here?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Karma Dorje » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:33 pm

Dronma wrote:
oldbob wrote:Dear Rinpoche,

Openhearted kindness is the key point to be fostered as a fundamental principle of the Dzogchen Community, if you want the Community to grow and be successful.
.
.
.
THIS IS THE ESSENCE OF OPENHEARTED KINDNESS.

Then everything will go well.


Oldbob, it seems to me that you think you know better than Rinpoche, so you are trying to give him a lesson about "openhearted kindness" now.
But honestly, why don't you write directly to your Guru, and/or SSI which was created by ChNNR himself, instead of giving this public performance here?


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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:27 pm

Dronma wrote:
oldbob wrote:Dear Rinpoche,

Open-hearted kindness is the key point to be fostered as a fundamental principle of the Dzogchen Community, if you want the Community to grow and be successful.
.
.
.
THIS IS THE ESSENCE OF OPEN-HEARTED KINDNESS.

Then everything will go well.


Oldbob, it seems to me that you think you know better than Rinpoche, so you are trying to give him a lesson about "openhearted kindness" now.
But honestly, why don't you write directly to your Guru, and/or SSI which was created by ChNNR himself, instead of giving this public performance here?


Hi Dronma, all and ALL,

I have NEVER thought that I know "better than Rinpoche," or anyone else, for that matter, about open-hearted kindness, or anything, for that matter. I am just one member of the DC voicing a single opinion in a public forum. I have sadly observed the DC membership, and attendance at DC retreats, dropping over the past several years. I would sincerely like to see more open hearted kindness in the social structures and monetization structures of the DC. Then more people can get the benefit of the Teachings. These are very rare and precious Teachings that can lead to enlightenment in one life time.

I have previously written to ChNNR and SSI about these specific issues and now I am posting them here, hopefully to get some more movement in the direction of greater open-hearted kindness, as others share their views with Rinpoche. The less than open-heartedly kindly social structures and monetization structures of the DC are the results of the "working with circumstances" of the influence of those advising ChNNR, NOT some carved in stone, Terma derived, sacred, never to be changed, revelation.

Example: For the wealthy who are meritorious members of the DC, who live within commuting distance of Conway, the upcoming DC retreat there is 0 actual cost for the retreat. For a non-member, coming from Hawaii (worse case distance in the US, who has attended any DC retreat before, the actual cost is $600 plus airfare of around $800, plus bus transportation to the Conway area of $100 r/t, plus motel of $60 per night, for the 7 nights necessary to attend the retreat, so add $400. This makes a total of almost $2000.

The DC retreats have developed a reputation as a "club for the rich."

At the last Tsegyalgar retreat, the attendance dropped to 350 from the previous retreat's 650.

What is wrong with this picture?

Example: For someone wanting to study the SMS, there is the initial cost of the SMS base level book, first level retreat fee (no discounts), the travel, lodging, and book, for the first level Teaching retreat and then the same costs for the next 8 levels. This is a financial show stopper for those who would very sincerely like to study and practice the SMS, AND are willing to do the extensive study and practices required, but just cannot afford the cost. If you don't live near a center, getting to the 2nd level stage of SMS can cost several thousand dollars.

What is wrong with this picture?

Example: For a poor person, who just wants to be a simple "reduced" member, and participate by listening to the webcasts, there is still the prohibitive costs of the hundred euros just to buy the normal practice books and CDs / DVDs, that everyone uses, let alone the CDs and DVDs of the retreats. Sure, some things are posted, for a while, on the webcast site and that helps a lot.

Why not permanently post everything needed for practice?

What is wrong with this picture.

For most people, the social structures and monetization structures of the DC are not workable.

Confronted with this display of less than open hearted kindness, most normal people go elsewhere.

What is wrong with this picture?

Allowing all members to have free and easy access to all the precious Teachings would help many more people than is presently possible, and would overcome the "selling the Dharma" reputation of the DC.

At the end of his last retreat, K. Yeshe has declared that the "Tibetan Teachings of my father" will be done by the SMS structure and that he, K. Yeshe, will be bringing out his own Teachings in his new series of retreats. I wish him all the best.

The key point is that the collected works of ChNNR include much more than the currently released SMS.

There needs to be a Community wide commentary on the evolution of the DC, otherwise we may wind up with another 3 million dollar sink hole like Margarita, another 1 million dollar sink hole like the dance hall in the woods, or anther 1 million dollar sink hole like K. Yeshe's movie. These seemingly endless expenditures of the limited resources of the DC could have built a really fantastic "World" center in Tenerife, with money left over to fund an endowment for permanent upkeep AND free publication of the Teachings.

It is really important that Rinpoche hear from a more balanced perspective than what he has heard from his past advisors. Otherwise, I fear that in a short while, K.Yeshe and Co. will shut down all access to the archives, (except for themselves), and dust off a "New" version of something that ChNNR has taught before, or where is otherwise restrictedly available (Yeshe Lama) covered with 'new age" and "new management" buzz words, and sell this to the "innocents" at a high price. I sincerely hope I am wrong, but sincerely fear I am not.

I am just one voice.

It is REALLY important that the wider DC advise Rinpoche in the evolution of the DC.

Hence my "performance." :smile:

ChNNR is working with circumstances. Please let him know know your thoughts, about the structure of the DC, or all he hears from is the current group of advisors, who have a vested interest in maintaining their power positions in the Community, through restricting access to the Teachings. Equal access to the Teachings is the first step to evolution. Practice makes perfection.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH7qq7OjJO8

ob

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:39 pm

oldbob wrote:Hi Dronma, all and ALL,

I have NEVER thought that I know "better than Rinpoche," or anyone else, for that matter, about open-hearted kindness, or anything, for that matter. I am just one member of the DC voicing a single opinion in a public forum. I have sadly observed the DC membership, and attendance at DC retreats, dropping over the past several years. I would sincerely like to see more open hearted kindness in the social structures and monetization structures of the DC. Then more people can get the benefit of the Teachings. These are very rare and precious Teachings that can lead to enlightenment in one life time.

I have previously written to ChNNR and SSI about these specific issues and now I am posting them here, hopefully to get some more movement in the direction of greater open-hearted kindness, as others share their views with Rinpoche. The less than open-heartedly kindly social structures and monetization structures of the DC are the results of the "working with circumstances" of the influence of those advising ChNNR, NOT some carved in stone, Terma derived, sacred, never to be changed, revelation.


Oldbob, I respect your agony about DC future.
But I hope you understand that nothing is going to change by posting your complains and suggestions for the organizational structure of DC in a public forum like Dharma Wheel. Don't you?
You know that there are meetings and procedures inside DC, where every member can participate and make suggestions. However, whether his/her suggestions will be accepted by Rinpoche and the people who are responsible for DC/SSI or not, it is something that nobody can control or demand from anybody, and especially from Rinpoche.

PS. By the way, DC has very logic prices for participation in my place. There is not such idea in people here like "selling the Dharma".
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:24 am

Dronma wrote:
oldbob wrote:Hi Dronma, all and ALL,

I have NEVER thought that I know "better than Rinpoche," or anyone else, for that matter, about open-hearted kindness, or anything, for that matter. I am just one member of the DC voicing a single opinion in a public forum. I have sadly observed the DC membership, and attendance at DC retreats, dropping over the past several years. I would sincerely like to see more open hearted kindness in the social structures and monetization structures of the DC. Then more people can get the benefit of the Teachings. These are very rare and precious Teachings that can lead to enlightenment in one life time.

I have previously written to ChNNR and SSI about these specific issues and now I am posting them here, hopefully to get some more movement in the direction of greater open-hearted kindness, as others share their views with Rinpoche. The less than open-heartedly kindly social structures and monetization structures of the DC are the results of the "working with circumstances" of the influence of those advising ChNNR, NOT some carved in stone, Terma derived, sacred, never to be changed, revelation.


Oldbob, I respect your agony about DC future.
But I hope you understand that nothing is going to change by posting your complains and suggestions for the organizational structure of DC in a public forum like Dharma Wheel. Don't you?
You know that there are meetings and procedures inside DC, where every member can participate and make suggestions. However, whether his/her suggestions will be accepted by Rinpoche and the people who are responsible for DC/SSI or not, it is something that nobody can control or demand from anybody, and especially from Rinpoche.

PS. By the way, DC has very logic prices for participation in my place. There is not such idea in people here like "selling the Dharma".


Dronma,

No agony here. Your word - your construct. Everything is perfect, just as it is, and ---

http://www.amazon.com/Tipping-Point-Lit ... 0316346624

Rinpoche works with circumstances. I believe that If enough people write a clear short note to Rinpoche he will reduce the costs and more people will get the benefit.

No demand here. Your word - your construct. I am just pointing out what I think is going on. One person's opinion.

Very glad to hear that everyone can afford the Teachings / retreats in Greece. I am very happy to hear of logic prices for participation.

We have no logic prices here in the US. :smile:

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:03 am

Re Karma Dorje's comments: apples and bananas. We differ in our appraisal of things, though we agree on some facts.

Yes, the webcasts are wonderful and are very helpful to many people, especially the disabled.
It is also wonderful that 2000 + people can access the teachings through the webcasts.

I am thinking of the other folks and how to help them too. There are a lot of other folks.

I sincerely believe that everyone has the Buddha seed in them and that if the precious Teachings of ChNNR can be presented in a more open-hearted, less costly, manner, then many more people will get the benefit of these precious Teachings leading to realization in one life time.

I applaud K Yeshe's successful career in IT and his application of management techniques to the organization of retreats. The retreats are now much better organized than before. Hurrah for K Yeshe's management skills!!!

I have NO aggression towards K Yeshe, passive or otherwise. This is entirely your phrase, and construction, not mine. If even one person is helped by K Yeshe's "new" presentation of Dzogchen, this is wonderful and I sincerely applaud that. How could I not? I am completely sincere when I have said before that everyone should send "hugs" to K Yeshe. He has gone way out on a limb in creating his "New Dzogchen" and I sincerely wish him all the best. If K Yeshe can give transmission, then whatever he teaches will be Dzogchen and he will do fine.

My sincere fear, as pointed to above, is that if his "New Dzogchen" is not financially successful, then K Yeshe might shut down access to the DC archives and use his private access to market "new" versions of what is in the archives. I don't say this to be aggressive towards K Yeshe at all. This is an honest appraisal based on 30+ years of observation. If ChNNR gives his blessing to all of this, then it is K Yeshe's moral and legal right to do whatever he wants to with his father's Teachings, and I completely support that.

If ChNNR chooses to allow equal access to all of his Teachings, this will allow for for the DC to flourish and prosper, regardless of whatever K Yeshe, or SSI, or any "power people," choose to do to limit access to the Teachings. This is why I am calling equal access, the key point of open-hearted kindness.

If enough people write to ChNNR, giving short, polite, and reasoned arguments, I sincerely believe he may, working with circumstances, allow equal access.

:heart:

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:06 pm

oldbob wrote:At the end of his last retreat, K. Yeshe has declared that the "Tibetan Teachings of my father" will be done by the SMS structure and that he, K. Yeshe, will be bringing out his own Teachings in his new series of retreats.

Wow really?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:50 pm

Pero wrote:
oldbob wrote:At the end of his last retreat, K. Yeshe has declared that the "Tibetan Teachings of my father" will be done by the SMS structure and that he, K. Yeshe, will be bringing out his own Teachings in his new series of retreats.

Wow really?


That's what I got out of it at 5 in the AM, in Margarita, with a little sleep, fuzzy head. :zzz: :rolleye:

It is possible that I misunderstood.

Nice if somebody has a transcript of the Italian, or English, of that section.

Don't panic. Many a slip twixt the cup and the lip. :stirthepot:

If ChNNR grants equal access to the Teachings, with everyone helping everyone else to get the practices and to DO them, then it is a whole new world.

:buddha1: :buddha1: :buddha1: :buddha1: :buddha1: :buddha1: :buddha1: :buddha1: :buddha1: :buddha1: :buddha1: :buddha1: :buddha1: :buddha1: :buddha1: :buddha1: :buddha1: :buddha1: :buddha1: :buddha1: :buddha1:

This would be a profound display of open-hearted kindness.

Having everyone filter through SMS is not so bad either.

http://www.dzogchen.it/sites/default/fi ... 2007_0.pdf

:group:

ob
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:58 pm

oldbob wrote:Yes, the webcasts are wonderful and are very helpful to many people, especially the disabled.
It is also wonderful that 2000 + people can access the teachings through the webcasts.

I am thinking of the other folks and how to help them too. There are a lot of other folks.


Who are those "other folks" you are talking about?
Folks who cannot even follow the open webcasts...?!?!? :jawdrop:
Then, why do you think that they are interested to practice Dzogchen?


oldbob wrote:If enough people write to ChNNR, giving short, polite, and reasoned arguments, I sincerely believe he may, working with circumstances, allow equal access.


Oldbob, your persistence to create (through a public forum) a revolutionary movement inside DC, it might have exactly the opposite results. As Karma Dorje wrote "it drives away far more people than the alleged high cost of being a DC member".
My personal understanding through practice is that at the right moment everything manifests spontaneously. If it does not manifest positively, then there is not yet enough accumulation of merits.

PS. If I believed in revolution, then I would be out in the streets fighting right now... :guns:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby T. Chokyi » Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:28 am

Open Webcast

April 26-28

From Tepoztlan, Morelos, Mexico
Retreat: “Longsal Atii Nadzer – The most important points of Ati Yoga for introducing to the primordial state"
GMT -5 hours
Teaching program:

Friday April 26
5:00 to 7:00 pm

Saturday April 27
10:00 to 12:00 am
4:00 to 6:00 pm (followed at 6:30 pm by a short Ganapuja )

Sunday April 28
10:00 to 12:00 am

In the Webcast Site http://www.shangshunginstitute.net/webcast
You will find updated SCHEDULE and information.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:15 pm

I, for one, believe that the management issues that Oldbob has raised are very much in need of addressing. I know there are others who feel the same, but at the same time I don't see any point in talking about such things here, not anymore, at least. It is rather clear that the majority of posters at DW aren't interested, don't want to talk about such things or plainly disagree with Oldbob. More troublingly, some people appear to horribly misconstrue what Oldbob is saying.

He isn't damning the DC by comparing it to other sanghas, for one. I don't think Robert feels that the DC is faring worse than other sanghas are - actually, if I read him correctly, he suggests that we're doing rather fine when compared to other such institutions. What Oldbob is trying to say is that ChNN's teachings deserve so much better than 'fine'.

The truth is, the way Buddhist institutions (the DC included) are being run in the West may be all in all both functional and perfectly acceptable in the West - which is to say, to the west of the Wall (although I'm not quite sure if the austerity-plagued South would fully agree these days - and I'm afraid more and more people might be already starting to question the status quo in the better off parts of the Old World as well). Eastern Europe is quite another matter - not to speak of Russia, most of Asia and virtually all of Africa and South America. And ChNN does have students all over the globe.

And the bad things that have come, they're not going to go away. We're going down, down, down. It may be high time we rethought the way things are managed and organised - before we find we've lost something vital.

Dronma wrote:My personal understanding through practice is that at the right moment everything manifests spontaneously. If it does not manifest positively, then there is not yet enough accumulation of merits.


What do you exactly mean by that, Dronma?

How would anything ever manifest if nothing ever were done?

If things aren't 'manifesting positively', are we to sit and do nothing but wait - even if we do contribute to what is happening and could help change things for the better?

Dronma wrote:If I believed in revolution, then I would be out in the streets fighting right now... :guns:


As far as the management of the DC goes, Robert isn't talking of any revolution whatsoever, in any sense of the word. The term really doesn't apply here at all.

Btw, ChNN uses the word 'revolution' in a very narrow sense, doesn't he?

When he says 'revolution', he doesn't mean 'radical change'. There is no more radical change than the one which happens to the practitioners on the path. When ChNN speaks of revolution, he always illustrates it with what the Chinese Maoists have done to Tibetans and the Tibetan culture - in particular, with what they did to them during the so-called 'Cultural Revolution'. In other words, ChNN's 'revolution' means 'totally ruthless and violent imposition of a way of life to those who do not want it at all'. It doesn't mean 'profound changes to the status quo'.

I find it rather tragic that Robert's desire to help spread ChNN's teachnigs has created such tensions within the sangha. That certainly hasn't been his intention. It worries me deeply, too, that what he wrote produced so strong emotions.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:54 pm

:namaste:

In the luminosity beyond any characteristic what-so-ever there is no question of dualistic perceptions dividing anything into this and that. Everything IS perfect just as it is.

The Dzogchen Community is in a period of transition and while we still have the opportunity to bring our concerns to our precious Master (may he live in good health forever) – perhaps it is wise and prudent that we do so.

There are real issues facing the Dzogchen Community that need to be addressed by our precious Master and by the greater Dzogchen Community.

1. Who legally and morally owns the most precious Longsal Terma Teachings of ChNNR? These may be two different questions. Are the practices contained in the Collected Works part of the world’s cultural heritage, or are they the possession of one individual or legal entity?

2. How will access to these precious Teachings be controlled after the passing of ChNNR?

3. Who will provide the Direct Introduction? Will there still be a World Wide Transmission? Can DI from other Masters / other traditions count as DI in the permission /access structure of the DC?

4. Who will provide the permissions to have access to the transcripts and recorded media? How will these permissions, and this access, be provided? What purpose do these permissions serve, and are they really needed, in the age of “everything on the web?”

5. Who will provide the permissions to actually do the practices? How will these permissions be provided? What purpose do these permissions serve, and are they really needed, in the context of the Ven. Longchenpa / Ven. Jigme Lingpa, permissions: permissions given in a dream / vision?

6. Who will provide instruction in the various practices? How will this be controlled? What purpose does this control have, and is it really needed, in the context of small groups meeting on the web, and in person, to read the transcripts, to listen and watch the recorded media, and to practice together?

The power people who are currently advising Rinpoche have their viewpoints.

I am not judging these viewpoints as good or bad.

Perhaps other viewpoints need to be heard.

The heart of the matter is that these most precious Teachings, leading to realization in one lifetime, need to be preserved in the luminous hearts of practitioners, who accomplish the Teachings.

This is the key point of equal access.

How can we help this to happen?

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby MalaBeads » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:57 pm

Oldbob,

I think you are asking a lot of important questions. Questions that would never have arisen in old Tibet but do indeed, for better or worse, arise in the world that we currently live in.

I have no answers and not even any ideas. The question i have for you is: is this the most appropriate place to ask those questions? Of course, there aresome DC people who read these pages but i wonder if the discussion would not be most appropriate in a DC forum where more people who are directly involved could participate.

Isn't there a DC blog that was started some time ago for members? If you want to discuss such things in a public forum, that might be the place.

I have heard - or read perhaps? - that Rinpoche has concerns that after he is gone, DC will be divided into many factions all fighting with each other, not unlike what happened after the Buddha passed away. I can understand that concern and your questions here only highlight that possibility. Transitions are not easy, especially in today's world. I worry too and i am not anywhere, anywhere, anywhere near as involved as others are and have been.

I appreciate your effort to keep clarifying the issues involved so people can understand what may occur.

I love Rinpoche and want him to be as strong and healthy as possible for as long as possible. And he and you and everyone involved is correct, i think, in your efforts to be as prepared as possible for the future. Its funny what we remember - or don't remember. I don't remember hearing anything about a "new dzogchen" from KY but as you say, it was the middle of the night here too and towards the end of the YL retreat i found myself drifting off a bit here and there so maybe it was as you say. I don't really know.

For my own peace of mind, and only my own i must say, I would like to hear a bit more from KY or Rinpoche about how they see the transition. Rinpoche's, and at the moment secondarily, KY's, intentions are what is most important, not our worries. If ever there was a person with an open heart, it is Rinpoche. That is not my concern at all.

Anyway, thats all i have to say.

Cheers.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Simon E. » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:48 pm

My 2 cents.
This is not the place for those questions.


:anjali:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Clarence » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:28 pm

I think OldBob asks some very good, and legitimate, questions.

I just wonder why he doesn't ask them at vajracakra.org as there are many more CNN students there.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:55 pm

MalaBeads wrote:I have heard - or read perhaps? - that Rinpoche has concerns that after he is gone, DC will be divided into many factions all fighting with each other, not unlike what happened after the Buddha passed away. I can understand that concern and your questions here only highlight that possibility. Transitions are not easy, especially in today's world. I worry too and i am not anywhere, anywhere, anywhere near as involved as others are and have been.

It is what I have also heard from Rinpoche. That's why he repeats so often that the answer to our problems is not revolution, but evolution!
That's why I wrote already that all positive things manifest spontaneously, through our own accumulation of merits - personally and collectively.
So, instead of discussing imaginary conspiracies, let's concentrate more in real practice.

I am more optimistic than oldbob and a few other people here. Dzogchen does not vanish when a perfect teacher (like ChNN Rinpoche) stops teaching it. Authentic transmission will always be here and now (whenever and wherever it is the right place and right time). Trying to put the transmission in little boxes for protecting it, possibly this will cause more harm than benefit.
Surely, ChNN Rinpoche is a unique teacher, and when he'll stop teaching then nothing will be the same anymore. But impermanence is the dominant rule of our dimension, isn't it? Everything is changing all the time, but the state of Dzogchen is not depended on those changes. So, I do not worry at all.


MalaBeads wrote:Rinpoche's, and at the moment secondarily, KY's, intentions are what is most important, not our worries. If ever there was a person with an open heart, it is Rinpoche. That is not my concern at all.

Exactly! :twothumbsup:

PS. And yes, this is not the right place for such questions!
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dan Dorje » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:10 pm

When I have seen for the first time "My Reincarnation" at cinema, at the end, someone asked:
"Do you want to make publicity to your community and teacher, no?"
Jennifer Fox gave a very intelligent response, something like:
"I have presented the relation between my Teacher and his son very open and without hiding anything.
Usually when people are making publicity, they are trying to exagerate pleasant things and are trying to hide unpleasant things."

I think this is the situation of this thread, also.

If someone thinks that there exists such sangha without problems and is turned back by Bob's words, maybe that person is not enough mature.
In my opinion, a difference between one sangha and another could be only if they accept (or not) their problems and if they are working (or not) to solve them.
As long as we are deluded (and we are all deluded until Total Realization), there could be no perfect sangha.
But we can collaborate to improve things.

What I like in DC is that they are not trying to make publicity or to show things in a way to just attract people.

:namaste:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby alpha » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:37 pm

April 25 – Mexico DF - at 7:30 pm (GMT -5)

Public talk: “The real condition of the Individual, Dzogchen”
from: Foro Polanco, Moliere 328, entre Homero y Ejercito Nacional, Mexico

Open Webcast
AOM
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