Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby arsent » Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:27 am

oldbob wrote:
Soar wrote:I saw it said "no replays" not no recordings.
:yinyang:


So doesn't that separate those who have a computer, have a good internet connection, have a recording program, and know how to use it, and have the leisure and opportunity to be awake at the time that a no-replays Teaching is given - from the rest of the world of interested Members of the DC?????????

This is precisely what is meant by UNEQUAL access to the Teachings.

Why should those who are more technically competent, and wealthy enough to afford computer stuff, be given privileged access to the Teachings?????

Perhaps normal people take one look at this, and run away from this unkind silliness. It is just not a serious way to teach Dharma.

ob


Bob!
What about those people that were disabled during historical times of teachings of Buddha Shakyamuni?
If you can't walk you can't attend a teaching, correct?
So if you going to listen webcast - you have to have computer and internet connection minimum, another way - go, take you time and effort to attend retreat personally! Agreed?
What I want to say - all the time, every historical period, there are people with different abilities and different levels of understanding and connection to the teachings and the teacher himself..
So why anyone would have an idea to rearrange everyone course of his point of view? I already have a life experience in the country with such principals - named Soviet Union :(
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby muni » Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:16 am

simhanada wrote:
I wonder where we'd be if Rinpoche et al had never instigated webcasts.


Where? Maybe "at the side" of the excluded suffering beings, for who the treasure is not reachable. Out.

How is the conduct? Oh, I saw a note about the Bodhicaryavatara. :thanks:
Rinpoche also mentioned on a video I saw from a teaching in Hongkong the four noble truths, even in a bit different way in Dzogchen, but its very importance to understand. No idea.

Rinpoche-students, a wonderful connection. :namaste:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby muni » Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:23 am

By the way, I am technically :pig:, can only write/read on a pc by kind help.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Soar » Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:18 am

oldbob wrote:
Soar wrote:I saw it said "no replays" not no recordings.
:yinyang:


So doesn't that separate those who have a computer, have a good internet connection, have a recording program, and know how to use it, and have the leisure and opportunity to be awake at the time that a no-replays Teaching is given - from the rest of the world of interested Members of the DC?????????

This is precisely what is meant by UNEQUAL access to the Teachings.

Why should those who are more technically competent, and wealthy enough to afford computer stuff, be given privileged access to the Teachings?????

Perhaps normal people take one look at this, and run away from this unkind silliness. It is just not a serious way to teach Dharma.

ob


This is crazy. Free webcasts are not going to put off normal people. Of course small improvements can be made here and there but this is not the way to go about it. If you can be of benefit then get on with it quietly, stop trying to incite other people.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby muni » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:08 pm

Stop to care, Bodhisattva! Then there are no problems.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:25 pm

simhanada wrote:oldbob, what about the line, "if you haven't attended the teaching you shouldn't listen to the webcast" I guess being along the same lines of if you haven't had the lung(or at the least, given permission) you shouldn't be reading the text. I've extended that to webcasts for myself. If I'm not attending I wouldn't listen to the replay. Although if I had received the same teaching in the past I have no problems listening to a replay if I haven't listened to the original.

I think its worth reminding ourselves that Rinpoche and the webcast team, more than any other sangha I can think of, with maybe the exception of Ajahn Brahm's, have made the teachings widely available and accessible. There are webcasts all year round for those interested to attend, for free. You need to be able to have computer and internet access and the available time but for many people those are surmountable problems.

I wonder where we'd be if Rinpoche et al had never instigated webcasts.


Hi simhanada, all and ALL,

:good: :good: :good:

You are putting the issues on the table.

Yes, the free webcasts are wonderful and a huge progress in the right direction.

Of course, I think that everyone should do exactly what their Teacher says, and follow his/her instructions, exactly and precisely.

That said, I think that different people will hear different things depending on what they bring to the table / where they are in their practice.

Perhaps - from one point of view (the pointing out instruction), the Dzogchen teachings are holographic and receiving one Teaching from a Dzogchen Master IS then beyond any question of permission to receive / read listen to and practice, all the Teachings (from a Dzogchen point of view):with no question of member / non member.

Please to remember that the webcasts are NOT contemporaneous with Rinpoche's actual speech. They are delayed by many seconds. Once you understand this, then you understand that ALL of Rinpoche's webcasts are exactly of the same nature as a replay. The replays are just delayed by more time.

From the side of Dzogchen, which is beyond all limits, and certainly beyond any issue of the three times, there is absolutely no question of "permission" or any issue of this sort. Perhaps, from the side of Dzogchen, this includes all Teachings and practices. :smile:

Either you are in the natural state or you are not.

Please to remember that ALL sentient beings possess the Buddha Seed, and from the point of view of the Buddha seed, it is beyond any question of the three times, or of Samsara and Nirvana.

THIS IS CALLED EQUAL ACCESS TO THE TEACHINGS: ALL TEACHINGS.

For those who feel better respecting a relative truth viewpoint that a practice will not function, unless you have the lung, then take the lung FROM RINPOCHE'S WEBCAST, OR REPLAYS, with the understanding that all webcasts are delayed in time.

What works for one person is NOT the same as what works for another. This is why Lord Buddha taught 84,000 (symbolizes many) different teachings, so there would be something for everyone.

It remains for each of us to work out our spiritual path / enlightenment with diligence.

Go for it! Go for what you know! Take the pointing out instruction and go for what is beyond what you know or don't know.

And yes, Ajan Braham is also making progress (as in "progress" so that more people can get the benefit of the teachings.) :smile: Perhaps he is also a great Dzogchen Master, the same as ChNNR.

Long life to the Dzogchen Masters, in good health and with success in all things.

:heart:

ob
Last edited by oldbob on Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby simhanada » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:58 pm

oldbob wrote:Please to remember that the webcasts are NOT contemporaneous with Rinpoche's actual speech. They are delayed by many seconds. Once you understand this, then you understand that ALL of Rinpoche's webcasts are exactly of the same nature as a replay. The replays are just delayed by more time.


I see it as myself and my teacher being in basically the same time frame and the sound takes a little longer than the people there in physical space to reach me. My teacher is there with the intention at that moment to convey the teaching to me and I am there with the intention to receive it. Even in meat space it takes time for sound leaving Rinpoche's mouth to reach my ears. I feel that listening to a replay is a bit different.

The alternative you propose does not make sense to me, that just listening to any recording is a lung. e.g. Rinpoche through SSI has made it clear if we do not have the transmission for some of the longsal teachings then we should not read the associated books. Are you saying all we need to do is listen to the associated retreat and then we have this permission? What about say SMS levels where permissions for certain teachings and practices are only given after passing a test. What if I'm poking around in the archives find a level 1 teaching and listen to it am I then qualified to go ahead and do those practices? If I wasn't at the closed yangti retreat and manage to get a recording and listen to it do I have the transmission? To me what your saying doesn't correspond to how Rinpoche is presenting his teachings to us.

Another example I just thought of is before webcasts we had the Word Wide Tranmission video tapes. The deal Rinpoche had was at a certain time Rinpoche would start practicing. We would start the tape and practice too. Its inevitable that we'd all be a bit out of sync but in general at that time we would all be there with the same intention. Rinpoche giving, us receiving. He didn't just give us the tapes and say watch it any old time and you'll have the transmission, why?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:44 pm

oldbob wrote:For those who feel better respecting a relative truth viewpoint that a practice will not function, unless you have the lung, then take the lung FROM RINPOCHE'S WEBCAST, OR REPLAYS, with the understanding that all webcasts are delayed in time.

Except this is exactly the opposite of what Rinpoche himself says. Though I personally also think that lung should be possible through a replay (like Dodrubchen Rinpoche used to send lungs on tapes to his US students), if the teacher giving the lung does not think so then that is what you should respect and act according to. Otherwise it basically amounts to you saying you received a transmission while your teacher says you did not. And that does not bode well for your practice at all.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:17 pm

simhanada wrote:I feel that listening to a replay is a bit different.
Essentially you are listening to a replay anyway. The teaching is recorded, transformed to binary and then transmitted. So drawing the line at the replay of something said a second, minute, hour, day, week, month, year ago seems kind of arbitrary really doesn't it?

If the intention of the person being recorded is to transmit something, and the intention of the person watching it is to receive something, then where is the problem?

Is there some sort of expiry/use by date on intention? Who defines this date?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:49 pm

simhanada wrote:
oldbob wrote:Please to remember that the webcasts are NOT contemporaneous with Rinpoche's actual speech. They are delayed by many seconds. Once you understand this, then you understand that ALL of Rinpoche's webcasts are exactly of the same nature as a replay. The replays are just delayed by more time.


I see it as myself and my teacher being in basically the same time frame and the sound takes a little longer than the people there in physical space to reach me. My teacher is there with the intention at that moment to convey the teaching to me and I am there with the intention to receive it. Even in meat space it takes time for sound leaving Rinpoche's mouth to reach my ears. I feel that listening to a replay is a bit different.

The alternative you propose does not make sense to me, that just listening to any recording is a lung. e.g. Rinpoche through SSI has made it clear if we do not have the transmission for some of the longsal teachings then we should not read the associated books. Are you saying all we need to do is listen to the associated retreat and then we have this permission? What about say SMS levels where permissions for certain teachings and practices are only given after passing a test. What if I'm poking around in the archives find a level 1 teaching and listen to it am I then qualified to go ahead and do those practices? If I wasn't at the closed yangti retreat and manage to get a recording and listen to it do I have the transmission? To me what your saying doesn't correspond to how Rinpoche is presenting his teachings to us.

Another example I just thought of is before webcasts we had the Word Wide Tranmission video tapes. The deal Rinpoche had was at a certain time Rinpoche would start practicing. We would start the tape and practice too. Its inevitable that we'd all be a bit out of sync but in general at that time we would all be there with the same intention. Rinpoche giving, us receiving. He didn't just give us the tapes and say watch it any old time and you'll have the transmission, why?


All good points and well taken. I think for you, you need to listen to what your heart is telling you that Rinpoche is meaning. Another view is that Rinpoche is ALWAYS transmitting and there is never a gap or a pause in the transmission. THEN whenever you take the lung from a repaly it is ok.

Think about it and do what is right for you. Maybe I am completely wrong,

but IT WORKS FOR ME. :smile:

Best,

ob

PS Now off the web till Tuesday in transit back to the USA.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:18 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:If the intention of the person being recorded is to transmit something, and the intention of the person watching it is to receive something, then where is the problem?

Is there some sort of expiry/use by date on intention? Who defines this date?


Greg, ChNN Rinpoche himself said that only listening to live webcasts is considered to be transmission from him. Replays are only notes for refreshing our memory. :namaste:
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:25 pm

I am not disputing what Rinpoche says, what I am discussing is the concept of "live", especially when applied to web casts.

Webcasts are a medium, a medium that has a stronger illusion of intimacy and directness than, say, the written medium, but it is still a medium nonetheless.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby T. Chokyi » Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:40 pm

Dronma wrote:[

ChNN Rinpoche himself said that only listening to live webcasts is considered to be transmission from him. Replays are only notes for refreshing our memory. :namaste:


This is 100% correct, and Pero says it also, and he is correct. CHNNR gives the lung during the live webcasts, it only makes sense, he is present during that webcast, he is there when you are there, this is what HE considers to be the time the lung is transmitted, so it is keeping with CHNNR's intention.

He reminded me of this on my private interview with him in July 2013 at his house in New England. I asked him if I could tell people about his teachings and webcast and he said "yes" and also reminded me that the only time they are actually receiving the lung is when he is on LIVE.

:namaste:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby muni » Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:55 pm

"Beyond any kind of limitations". Namkhay Norbu Rinpoche

http://vimeo.com/48582470

:namaste:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby MalaBeads » Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:10 pm

Over time, i have found best to not try and turn any statement made by any teacher into an absolute. And to not compare what a teacher says to one student to what he/she says to another student. In fact, i have heard a Tibetan teacher say exactly that. ChNN teaches this in many ways.

Ciao.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:45 pm

It is not that teachers are saying one thing to a student and the opposite thing to somebody else. It is that students due to ignorance, we are not able to comprehend correctly the words of the teacher, and sometimes we rely up on imaginary interpretations.
ChNNR is saying often not to run behind our fantasies.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:18 pm

T. Chokyi wrote:He reminded me of this on my private interview with him in July 2013 at his house in New England.


July 2013 haven't happened yet I'm afraid.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:21 pm

MalaBeads wrote:Over time, i have found best to not try and turn any statement made by any teacher into an absolute. And to not compare what a teacher says to one student to what he/she says to another student. In fact, i have heard a Tibetan teacher say exactly that. ChNN teaches this in many ways.

Ciao.


I agree fully, even the things we all hear him say on the webcast manage to take on many different meanings depending on who is listening.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby T. Chokyi » Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:32 pm

heart wrote:
T. Chokyi wrote:He reminded me of this on my private interview with him in July 2013 at his house in New England.


July 2013 haven't happened yet I'm afraid.

/magnus


typo... 2012

New people that have not heard Rinpoche in person should understand that they get the DI and the
lungs (like for Dorje Drollo etc) from the master when he is live in person on the webcast, and not from replays,
although listening to the replay we can learn. If you have any doubt just write your local Gar.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby MalaBeads » Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:17 pm

I happen to agree that there is a significant difference between listening to Rinpoche give a lung live on webcast and listening to the replay. Anyone who has ever attended a live music performance and then listened to the CD must know this is true.

I don't know the proper words to use (seems not quite correct to say there is a difference in vibration and/or energy but those words seem closest). Something essential seems to happen to sound when it is on tape vs when it is live. Something gets lost on tape. It is not just about time.

Perhaps not everyone agrees with this - and honestly i cant remember hearing Rinpoche say anything specific about it (i dont want to pull that rabbit out of my hat, so to speak) What I am saying is just from my own experience of being at a live music performance vs listening to a CD. Something gets lost. It's not the same.

That's all. :smile:
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