Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

[Andrew108]

I'm surprised anyone was turned away through lack of funds. I've seen Rinpoche give all the money he gets for the retreats back to the gar on numerous occasions. I have also met many poor students at Merigar who manage to get the teachings. If someone is turned away then the member of staff doing the turning away should be reported. The situation should be reported to Rinpoche. Simple as.
As for the Gar in the U.S they could reduce the 'reduced circumstances' membership fee so that it is inline with Merigar. Maybe 70 dollars or so. And for Romanian Dzogchenpas and others from poor countries reduce the membership fee accordingly. That's it.

[oldbob]

I'm surprised anyone was turned away through lack of funds. I've seen Rinpoche give all the money he gets for the retreats back to the gar on numerous occasions. I have also met many poor students at Merigar who manage to get the teachings. If someone is turned away then the member of staff doing the turning away should be reported. The situation should be reported to Rinpoche. Simple as.
As for the Gar in the U.S they could reduce the 'reduced circumstances' membership fee so that it is inline with Merigar. Maybe 70 dollars or so. And for Romanian Dzogchenpas and others from poor countries reduce the membership fee accordingly. That's it.

Again, from your lips to God (or a Buddhist version thereof).

Reality on the ground is different. I think that things vary widely from time to time and from place to place depending on who is at the gate.

http://tsegyalgar.org/localcenters/tseg ... hchoegya2/

They are allowing application for "Special Circumstance" and some work study, and a $125 price for first time non members. (Note: no membership discounts apply.)

Hurrah. This is sort of progress.

For Khyentse Yeshe's four day Yeshe Lama retreat, there is a 200 Euro fee with membership discounts applying. There is no mention of special circumstances or work study.

http://www.dzogchen.it/2013-03/YesheLama-en.pdf

For those seeking consultation services, you should note Khyentse Yeshe's consultation offering on his beautiful Hexagon consulting site:

http://www.my-hexagon.net/

"HEXAGON simply works time and material, with a minimal daily rate of 500$ up to 1500$ (according to effort), tax and expenses at your charge."

So the Merigar retreat is a real bargain.

Certainly everyone wishes Khyentse Yeshe all the best in his new venture and anyone who can attend the Merigar retreat, certainly should, as the price represents an excellent value,

and a rare opportunity, to receive these very precious teachings from an acknowledged lineage holder.

Sincerely,

ob

[Andrew108]

Progress indeed concerning DC in the U.S. I can't think of anything more. Lets hope our brothrs and sisters to the East and South who are short of funds can be given some relief.

[spyderix]

For the first time since reading this forum I experience that discussion is meaningfull.

I would like to add something about numbers, because I know your point and it concerns me also. For example my father and mother they are against but we have connection, very strong and throughout improving my understanding of the teachings also my capacity improves and I see that they receive this fruits. I live in a city, I walk, meet people establish next connections etc. Moreover there is worldwide community with our master at the top and many Gar Lings and this small gakyils as my own body speech and mind turning as I showed a little about above. I know that thru this in every single person most of the time arises this cause which will bear fruit in the future and I have concrete experiences with this and great faith in it. Every single day when I see how wonderful it is I think how to do better. In one of the Longsal Teachings Rinpoche explaind it and there is this drawing at blue book Dzogchen Community. Rinpoche also explaind that he can’t do everything or be everywhere physically, i think this is job for his students to connect whole of the samsara with Master(Dzogchen itself) and I think this is what transmision is all about.

But I see many times people that have this capacity “to bring light where there is dark” but they are distracted and are stuck in samsaric things etc.

[Dronma]

Lets talk about collaboration a bit. What is collaboration?

From a practice perspective, it is two or more samsaric beings entangling their samsaric conditions in some sort of enterprise. ChNN may be a perfect teacher with a perfect teaching but none of us students are. We are samsaric beings and any kind of collaboration involves entangling out samsaric conditions with each other. That's my perspective anyway.

If people are are running away from DC, it may be because ChNN's teaching asks them to take responsibility for their conditions and work with others at the same not holding out false and fabricated promises like other teachers have been known to do.

Dzogchen may be simple but it is not easy.

Thank you, MalaBeads!
Very interesting discussion, indeed!
Although I think that it is not proper to discuss everything in a public forum.
Moreover, whether we agree or disagree here, practically nothing is going to change since (as far as I know) none of us is in charge for DC organization.
But seriously now, does anybody believe that 4,16 euros per month is a high price for DC membership fee?
I have some friends here who do not have permanent job, do not have steady income, but they can find easily this little money!
It just needs some sincere interest in the teachings, some good will, a little control in personal budget, and of course full responsibility of ourself.

Dzogchen may be simple, but it is not easy!

[Dan Dorje]

But seriously now, does anybody believe that 4,16 euros per month is a high price for DC membership fee?
I have some friends here who do not have permanent job, do not have steady income, but they can find easily this little money!
It just needs some sincere interest in the teachings, some good will, a little control in personal budget, and of course full responsibility of ourself.

Dzogchen may be simple, but it is not easy! [/color]

4 e/month it is not a high price, indeed.
But for someone who earns 200 e/month (this is a salary for a medic or a teacher in Romania), it is impossible to pay even 120 e for a retreat.
Maybe your friends can make more then 200 e/month without having a permanent job.
This can be possible in France, Italy, Germany, USA, UK but not in Romania, Bulgaria, Bessarabia (Moldova) or Ukraine.

My humble opinion: we should help people and create favorable condition for them as much as we can, without judging them.

[oldbob]

The potential for Enlightenment, belongs to everyone.

It is a unique feature of the human condition, as shown by Lord Buddha and many others.

There are techniques available that allow this to be obtained by anyone who sincerely practices these techniques.

ChNNR has given more than 500 retreats, which have all been recorded.

Everything is there. The question is how to organize this great wealth of material and put it to use in a good way, connected to transmission, lineage and sacred permissions.

What exists is perfect as it is.

But perhaps our best can be done better. Then more people can get the benefit.

Please send your ideas to ChNNR.

[oldbob]

But seriously now, does anybody believe that 4,16 euros per month is a high price for DC membership fee?
I have some friends here who do not have permanent job, do not have steady income, but they can find easily this little money!
It just needs some sincere interest in the teachings, some good will, a little control in personal budget, and of course full responsibility of ourself.

Dzogchen may be simple, but it is not easy! [/color]

4 e/month it is not a high price, indeed.
But for someone who earns 200 e/month (this is a salary for a medic or a teacher in Romania), it is impossible to pay even 120 e for a retreat.
Maybe your friends can make more then 200 e/month without having a permanent job.
This can be possible in France, Italy, Germany, USA, UK but not in Romania, Bulgaria, Bessarabia (Moldova) or Ukraine.

My humble opinion: we should help people and create favorable condition for them as much as we can, without judging them.

These are the facts on the ground. It must be heart-breaking to want to go to a retreat, or buy practice materials, and not be able to afford to.

So I would add to Dan Dorje's eloquent opinion:

We should help make the precious Dharma Teachings of ChNNR available to all people, equally, regardless of age, country, sex, financial status or intellectual ability. As much as we can, we should create favorable conditions for everyone to have easy access to lineage holding Teachers, and lineage Teachings.

The purpose of all physical, organizational, and social structures within the Dzogchen Community should be to help this to happen.

[oldbob]

Progress indeed concerning DC in the U.S. I can't think of anything more. Lets hope our brothrs and sisters to the East and South who are short of funds can be given some relief.

Oh come on Andrew. I can think of lots more they could do.

1. They could allow the regular membership discounts so those on reduced membership (and especially from other poorer countries / Gars) could know that they could attend for $150 without having to go begging to the Yellow Gekyil. Last year I did not attend the Tseygyalgar retreat, because I felt that the fixed price of $300 they were asking was too much for my budget. I offered $150 which they turned down, so I stayed home and happily listened to the web-cast. Note: most Dharma centers pricing structure includes a reassurance, "No one will be turned away for lack of funds." This statement signifies that those in authority WANT everyone to get the Teachings. The absence of this statement implies the opposite. Why is this so hard for Tseygyalgar and the DC to understand.? Go figure?

Again, the free web-casts are great, but these then create unfulfillable expectations for a poor person, to be able to attend retreats, buy practice materials and buy recordings of the teachings. Perhaps this is Dharma as a cause of suffering.

2. They could allow reasonable work-study for all who want it instead of just a limited number of people. If they have 20 spaces and you are the 21st applicatnt, where is the common sense or kindness in this system. They could match the work-study to the capacity of the workers, rather than have everyone doing the same physical labor.

3. They could allow the retreat costs to be linked with the actual costs of the retreat, with proportional refunds to everyone, from any surplus, as allowable. Yearly operating costs could be obtained from membership dues.

4. They could provide full scholarships, including transportation, room and board, from a legacy endowment set up for that purpose, to those who truly cannot afford to attend.

5. They could provide free, photocopied practice material relating to the retreat, so that there would not be hidden charges to buy the required materials at high prices. Those who can afford it, can buy the high priced books.

6. They could set up car pools from different parts of the country to help those who cannot afford air tickets to get to Conway.

7. The local Sangha could open their homes, and land, for retreat people to have a free place to camp, sleep and cook.

8. They could include the cost of the retreat CD / DVD in the normal cost of the retreat, rather than have this be an additional, hidden cost at the end of the retreat.

9, They could de-link the Breathing course, and "Public" Yantra Yoga, from anything to do with the Dzogchen Community, because these are Fabiol's, not ChNNR's, creation.

10. They could link new-comers to an old-timers support desk so the new-comers wouldn't feel left out and could get their practice and practical questions answered.

11. They could allow a free retreat, or almost free, to anyone who could prove that they had already attended a retreat on that subject.

I dunno? That is just in two minutes off the top of my head.

Oh and

There should be low cost, multi-media practice modules, using recordings of ChNNR's teachings, for each secondary practice made available, so that new-comers can learn the practices easily and old-timers can get get the pronunciations right.

Some of this exists already, but the Gars could fill in the blanks where needed.

Some of these ideas are doable for this retreat.

I'm happy to stay home again, if they charge a price that I feel I cannot afford.

If anyone feels that the published prices are too high, or that they are given a hard time by the Yellow Gakyil, they should write to ChNNR and inform him.

The key point is that there are many mix and match and other creative solutions for monetizing the teachings that could allow more people to get the benefit and raise more money for the Community. One size fits most, pricing structures are not kindly and many normal people take one look at this lack of flexibility and run away.

DC retreats are getting a reputation as a club for the rich.

Best, ob

[Andrew108]

Hi Oldbob, The reason Rinpoche travels so much is so that as many people as possible can get the teachings from him. He does what he can to make sure as many people as possible get the transmission. The situation at a certain level is karmic. We have to work with our circumstances. If our circumstances prevent us from receiving teachings then we have to push through and actively seek the transmission for ourselves.
In your case you offered 150 dollars. Why did you take 'no' for an answer? Why not go there and cause a fuss? I guarantee that if you go this year with 150 dollars in your pocket you will be able to receive the teachings. So try it and find out. See there is a tendancy to be passive. To accept the situation. I remember one teaching I went to that I couldn't afford and said that I would pay for the whole retreat at a later date. I made a promise in a heartfelt way. I didn't take no for an answer. I received wonderful teachings. I paid the course fee a few months later. So you have to push. Not be passive. The money thing is just illusion like anything else. If it becomes an absolute obstacle then there is a problem. I think sincerely that the various gars are doing a good job. They are not charging thousands of dollars. They are not making a profit.

[simhanada]

Oh come on Andrew. I can think of lots more they could do.

Have you considered joining a gakyil to push your ideas?

A lot of your suggestions are nice ideas. However, people have to implement them.

[treehuggingoctopus]

Hi Oldbob, The reason Rinpoche travels so much is so that as many people as possible can get the teachings from him. He does what he can to make sure as many people as possible get the transmission. The situation at a certain level is karmic. We have to work with our circumstances. If our circumstances prevent us from receiving teachings then we have to push through and actively seek the transmission for ourselves.
In your case you offered 150 dollars. Why did you take 'no' for an answer? Why not go there and cause a fuss?

Andrew, you're talking to the guy who first invited Rinpoche to the US more than thirty years ago, and pretty much started the whole thing going there.

[treehuggingoctopus]

The money thing is just illusion like anything else.

Of course it is. So is the agony of cancer. Now tell someone dying that the pain they're experiencing is just an illusion. If someone is starving, tell them their hunger is only illusory. If someone destitute or even simply broke wants to attend a retreat, tell them there is no retreat, no teaching and no financial problem.

[Andrew108]

Saying something is like an illusion means that the situation is workable.

[Andrew108]

Hi Oldbob, The reason Rinpoche travels so much is so that as many people as possible can get the teachings from him. He does what he can to make sure as many people as possible get the transmission. The situation at a certain level is karmic. We have to work with our circumstances. If our circumstances prevent us from receiving teachings then we have to push through and actively seek the transmission for ourselves.
In your case you offered 150 dollars. Why did you take 'no' for an answer? Why not go there and cause a fuss?

Andrew, you're talking to the guy who first invited Rinpoche to the US more than thirty years ago, and pretty much started the whole thing going there.

And he says he is happy to stay at home again if the retreat is something he cannot afford. This is a passive attitude. Also I think it was Rinpoche who started the whole thing. Oldbob is very humble and I'm sure he'll agree with that.

[oldbob]

Hi Oldbob, The reason Rinpoche travels so much is so that as many people as possible can get the teachings from him. He does what he can to make sure as many people as possible get the transmission. The situation at a certain level is karmic. We have to work with our circumstances. If our circumstances prevent us from receiving teachings then we have to push through and actively seek the transmission for ourselves.
In your case you offered 150 dollars. Why did you take 'no' for an answer? Why not go there and cause a fuss? I guarantee that if you go this year with 150 dollars in your pocket you will be able to receive the teachings. So try it and find out. See there is a tendancy to be passive. To accept the situation. I remember one teaching I went to that I couldn't afford and said that I would pay for the whole retreat at a later date. I made a promise in a heartfelt way. I didn't take no for an answer. I received wonderful teachings. I paid the course fee a few months later. So you have to push. Not be passive. The money thing is just illusion like anything else. If it becomes an absolute obstacle then there is a problem. I think sincerely that the various gars are doing a good job. They are not charging thousands of dollars. They are not making a profit.

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for your good advice. I will consider it well. However, if you had read what I wrote, you would have seen that I did attend the retreat on the web, (every day), and received the transmission of the teachings, flawlessly and with much happiness.

My circumstance and level of passivity have allowed me to attend 3 to 4 physical retreats with ChNNR, a year, since 1980. Maybe I could have upped that to 5 retreats last year if I had shown up in Conway and "pushed" the issue. But I didn't feel that was necessary. I do not have to be physically at a retreat, to "get" the retreat. Some people do, and so what you are suggesting would work for you and for them, but has NO relation to my situation. You did not comprehend what I wrote.

My point about the $150 was not that I was at any sense of loss by not attending the retreat (I had also received those particular teachings several times before), but that the Gakyil mind set was that they were somehow helping the DC by drawing a line in the sand about the costs. From my point of view this was foolish on their part because their decision prevented the DC from receiving an extra $150 that could have helped with expenses. It would have cost them nothing to allow me to attend. What did they prove except that they could exercise authority and keep people from attending, if someone did not meet their expectations of payment. This circumstance is fine from their point of view.

My point is that this kind of unfriendly attitude is what is killing the DC. In the context of the thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of volunteer time that I have contributed to Tseygyalgar it was just small minded on their part. Please keep in mind that these are the same folks who spent a million dollars building a dance hall, open to the elements, in the wilds of Massachusetts, for the regular use (in season) of only 20 people.

What's wrong with this picture?

There has got to be a better way.

So my offer still stands to reinvent the DCA if anyone is interested. There needs to be a low cost parallel track way to allow access to ChNNR and his holy Teachings.

If anyone has any ideas about this they should write to ChNNR.

Also young Andrew, add up what it costs to go through even just 3 levels of SMS or to "get" the collection of secondary practices, through attending retreats or buying practice books and materials. We are talking MANY thousands of dollars for each track. Under the current system, if you don't pay the money, you don't get the Teachings. Note that SMS has NO member discounts.

The key point here is that it is also possible to develop systems of distribution for the Teachings that are more cost effective and would enable more people to get the benefit.

ob

[treehuggingoctopus]

And he says he is happy to stay at home again if the retreat is something he cannot afford. This is a passive attitude.

The price was 300$. He wanted to come and offered 150$. He was told it's not enough - by the organisers of the retreat. Really, Andrew, what do you expect people to do in such a situation? Go down on their knees and start to beg? Start an argument? Go complain to someone higher up? Oh for pete's sake.

[Andrew108]

Are we talking about Dzogchen? About receiving the Dzogchen transmission? Or are we talking about paying for the hundreds of secondary practices we can do because we still haven't understood something.
If there are problems with the Dzogchen Community it is the problem of the proliferation of secondary practices. If a person wants the Dzogchen transmission then it's right there at an unbelievably low cost. It's really simple.
Oldbob and young Andrew are equally fresh? No? I have an idea. If you go to four retreats a year and have been doing that for quite a while, why not instead of going to a retreat, sponsor someone who can't afford it? I don't mean this in a sarcastic or negative way. If you can't change the policy or what the Dzogchen Community has become then why not set up a fund for poor people who cannot attend when the Direct Introduction is given? I think this would be helpful. Also a others have mentioned you might want to get more involved with the gakyil and try to work at it from the inside.

[Stewart]

And he says he is happy to stay at home again if the retreat is something he cannot afford. This is a passive attitude.

The price was 300$. He wanted to come and offered 150$. He was told it's not enough - by the organisers of the retreat. Really, Andrew, what do you expect people to do in such a situation? Go down on their knees and start to beg? Start an argument? Go complain to someone higher up? Oh for pete's sake.

THO, OB,

I wouldn't worry too much about what Andrew says, he often 'fixates' on a 'topic', this week it 'being passive', then freely applies it to every subject regardless of its relevance.

Example: OB has been anything but passive, yet Andrew has tried to fit his ‘square peg’ idea into OB’s ‘round hole’ problem

Another example was him telling someone to study Semde a few weeks ago, but not explaining why he should or why Andrew himself was qualified to give this advice in the first place. My own feeling is he read the Kunjed Gyalpo…many people have, I have, but Andrew feels that’s enough to give others advice on Semde.

The bottom line is Andrew, whether he admits it or not, believes he is a teacher, someone who has the capacity to dispense advice to others.

To be honest Andrew, I wish you were more passive - if the opposite of passive is what you are doing now.

PS. THO, love the location

[oldbob]

Hi Oldbob, The reason Rinpoche travels so much is so that as many people as possible can get the teachings from him. He does what he can to make sure as many people as possible get the transmission. The situation at a certain level is karmic. We have to work with our circumstances. If our circumstances prevent us from receiving teachings then we have to push through and actively seek the transmission for ourselves.
In your case you offered 150 dollars. Why did you take 'no' for an answer? Why not go there and cause a fuss?

Andrew, you're talking to the guy who first invited Rinpoche to the US more than thirty years ago, and pretty much started the whole thing going there.

And he says he is happy to stay at home again if the retreat is something he cannot afford. This is a passive attitude. Also I think it was Rinpoche who started the whole thing. Oldbob is very humble and I'm sure he'll agree with that.

Rinpoche is the founder of the DCA in the sense that he is the Teacher and provided the Teachings.

I am the founder in the sense that I provided the link between Mr. Anderson's group and Rinpoche. Mr. Anderson and two of his students were attending a Vajrakilia retreat at HH Dudjom's center in Greenfield, NY where I was also attending. We talked about Dzogchen and I loaned them a copy of transcripts of some of ChNNrs early talks. This led to my taking a bus 6 times, from NYC to Conway, and reading the Teachings of ChNNR, in a circle with Mr. Anderson and his close students. This led to our inviting Rinpoche and his family to visit the USA for the first retreat in 1982. I did the interface through Nancy Simmons and sent the tickets. Then, with Al Daggett, I served on the first Gakyil and served as administrator for the organization of the DCA. I arranged the 501C3 non-profit certification as well as the Massachusetts State tax exemption. I then ran the tape archives for 12 years or so, starting the first media libraries at Merigar and Tseygyalgar. I helped spread the Teachings by making tapes and images available at low, actual cost of production, prices. I think we charged $1 per cassette tape. Things were different back then. Anyone showing up and asking for work study was automatically granted it, and it was no big thing.

Next Summer, if I don't go to the Tseygyalgar retreat, I will listen to it on web cast, and be completely happy. If I don't go, it just means that the DC doesn't get the extra money from me, and others, that they could have received if they had allowed member discounts. No big deal for me. BUT THIS IS SYMPTOMATIC OF THE MINDSET OF THE GAKYIL and helps to explain why only 20 people show up for Ganapuja.

Which is why I am offering to take on the task of reinventing the DCA, through a low cost, easy access parallel track, if we can come up with some good, workable ideas to bring to Rinpoche.

What say you, Andrew and all, speaking of being passive?

Best, ob