Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

[username]

I don't think any view can be %100 without concepts. Experience and/or meditation however is, or rather, can be a different thing altogether, as is conduct/integration in parts. Dharmakaya/Samantabadhra is without concepts or even memory as I recall which is why Vajrasattva & others are there. Also I remember how different texts specify the differences between the 3 series in definition & how they function & suit different people. Here is one whose source I remember offhand without digging around:

"Among the three classes of the Great Perfection, the mind class (semde)
imposes mental judgments and talks about natural clarity. The
expanse class (longde) focuses on basic space and relies on baselessness.
These classes do not [start with] realization of pure awareness
directly. Also, the [first] three cycles of the class of upadesha (mengagde)
rely on the intermediate state (bardo of in between death & rebirth)
[to attain the ultimate goal]. On the other hand, the fourth cycle of the
class of upadesha perfects the experience of the natural state that transcends
all conceptualization and provides the crucial means of attaining liberation, the
light body [in this very lifetime]."
- Jigmed Lingpa

[SSJ3Gogeta]

Everything I've seen presents upadesha (mengagde) as the best class........better than longde or semde.

Actually thats not true, because yangti class claims its even higher?

[Malcolm]

Everything I've seen presents upadesha (mengagde) as the best class........better than longde or semde.

Actually thats not true, because yangti class claims its even higher?

yang ti is part of man ngag sde.

[SSJ3Gogeta]

yang ti is part of man ngag sde.

oh yes thats right.

yangti thinks its higher than the innermost secret cycle though.

[Malcolm]

yang ti is part of man ngag sde.

oh yes thats right.

yangti thinks its higher than the innermost secret cycle though.

No, not really; everything in yang ti is in snying thig and vice versa, including dark retreat.

[SSJ3Gogeta]

Ok we all can agree that

Mengagde nyingthig / yangti >>>>>other Dzogchen

[Malcolm]

Ok we all can agree that

Mengagde nyingthig / yangti >>>>>other Dzogchen

If you cannot understad it, man ngag sde is completely useless.
If you cannot understand it, long sde is completely useless.
If you cannot understand it, atiyoga is completely useless.
If you cannot understand it, anuyoga is completely useless.
If you cannot understand it, mahayoga is completely useless.
If you cannot understand it,yoga is completely useless.
If you cannot understand it, upa is completely useless.
If you cannot understand it, kriya is completely useless.
If you cannot understand it, the bodhisattva yāna is completely useless.
If you cannot understand it, the śravaka and prateyekabuddha yanas are completely useless.
If you cannot understand it, the vehicle of tirthikas is completely useless
If you cannot understand it, even the vehicle of gods and men is completely useless.

Therefore, the supreme vehicle for you is the one you can understand and practice.

[SSJ3Gogeta]

[alpha]

i have been lately thinkhing about the safety of longde.
Since longde is conected with the second statement of getting rid of doubts one would asume that is safe to practice.
But there are also vissions arising as in thogal.
Rinpoche quite often speaks of the necesity that one is stable in rigpa before one approaches thogal due to the fact that there is the danger of grasping at the vissions and blocking future development.
But there isnt such a warning in longde.The only word of advice in longe is related to balancing ones energy when doing the practice.

[username]

there is the danger of
....
But there isnt such a warning in longde.

I remember otherwise. It is best to read those specific booklets on the subject of which there are quite a few, better yet on such queries to obtain relevant past replay CDs, email him or other experts, which I am not one of I assure you, instead of public discussion IMO.

[alpha]

there is the danger of grasping at the vissions and blocking future development.
But there isnt such a warning in longde.

I remember otherwise. It is best to read the books, relative past replays, email him or other experts, which I am not one of I assure you, instead of public discussion IMO.

Sure .But personally i dont remeber any warning being given in the last retreat.
Anyway...why is longde aimed at those who still have doubts and are still beginners when it comes to the state being recognized ,discovered or not?
And i've read the books and attended the retreat btw.....

[username]

Hi Alpha, I didn't say you had not, just that I specifically remember him saying otherwise while teaching on the subject & those longde retreats (stand alone or on Chogyur Lingpa) go back for quite some years. He also warned of other pitfalls in some of those longde retreats which is why those audio replays are indispensable for those interested in specific retreat subjects IMO. As I often do not listen carefully to what he says & get carried away by my train of thoughts or assume to know what he means only to find otherwise later when listening more carefully.

On your other point in Dzogchen or TB or even Buddhism there is a tendency to line up different categories if they are of the same number. However it does not mean that they are all the same. It just means basic truths manifest in different yanas or methods in different aspects. If we take your over-generalization that Longde is for doubters only, which is not true or what he means, merely that it is very helpful to the second statement stage particularly, then by your rule:
- only semde is good for recognizing the natural state
- only mengagde is good for integration.
This I am sure you will agree will be taking things too far and absurd. Longde is particularly apt for people at that stage but many doing only mengagde & not longde at all also went through that stage successfully. Also longde is a complete path in itself & like megagde can result in the rainbow body. Just different horses for different courses.

[heart]

The difference in view in the three series is not conceptual, it is experiential.

Experience have a tendency to be expressed conceptually in general, I think that might be true for all the nine yanas actually.

/magnus

[Pero]

"Among the three classes of the Great Perfection, the mind class (semde)
imposes mental judgments and talks about natural clarity.
...
- Jigmed Lingpa

Yeah and what exactly are these mental judgements?

i have been lately thinkhing about the safety of longde.
Since longde is conected with the second statement of getting rid of doubts one would asume that is safe to practice.
But there are also vissions arising as in thogal.
Rinpoche quite often speaks of the necesity that one is stable in rigpa before one approaches thogal due to the fact that there is the danger of grasping at the vissions and blocking future development.
But there isnt such a warning in longde.The only word of advice in longe is related to balancing ones energy when doing the practice.

As far as I understand, thogal is much more direct. You can get something to happen real quick. Longde is really slow in comparison.
BTW, did you get your answers? If you did could you PM me? I'm curious about it.

[Malcolm]

The difference in view in the three series is not conceptual, it is experiential.

Experience have a tendency to be expressed conceptually in general, I think that might be true for all the nine yanas actually.

/magnus

Those expressions are not the experience.

[username]

@Pero: The variegated conceptual mind instructions at the Four contemplatiozn stages of semde, which though different at various phases, if not opposite, end up whipping.your mind into proper shape by the end to recognize, progress & integrate continuously, if successful.

[alpha]

"Among the three classes of the Great Perfection, the mind class (semde)
imposes mental judgments and talks about natural clarity.
...
- Jigmed Lingpa

Yeah and what exactly are these mental judgements?

i have been lately thinkhing about the safety of longde.
Since longde is conected with the second statement of getting rid of doubts one would asume that is safe to practice.
But there are also vissions arising as in thogal.
Rinpoche quite often speaks of the necesity that one is stable in rigpa before one approaches thogal due to the fact that there is the danger of grasping at the vissions and blocking future development.
But there isnt such a warning in longde.The only word of advice in longe is related to balancing ones energy when doing the practice.

As far as I understand, thogal is much more direct. You can get something to happen real quick. Longde is really slow in comparison.
BTW, did you get your answers? If you did could you PM me? I'm curious about it.

I'll talk to rinpoche. I will let you know in the next few days.

[Pero]

@Pero: The variegated conceptual mind instructions at the Four contemplatiozn stages of semde, which though different at various phases, if not opposite, end up whipping.your mind into proper shape by the end to recognize, progress & integrate continuously, if successful.

I'm sorry but I don't see how your reply explains what the supposed mental judgements in Semde are. If you're saying that the four yogas are conceptual methods till they're not, well, it's the same way in Mengagde methods (except thogal etc.).

[Malcolm]

I don't think any view can be %100 without concepts.

Dzogchen "view" means being in the state of contemplation, that is what i was getting at.

[username]

I'm sorry but I don't see how your reply explains what the supposed mental judgements in Semde are. If you're saying that the four yogas are conceptual methods till they're not, well, it's the same way in Mengagde methods (except thogal etc.).

Within each phase there are different instructions possible depending on the student as the guru sees fit or the student realizes. These instructions are meant to shape & train the conceptual mind of the student. You could say in small part, but NOT wholly, similar to certain other high paths. But the aim & fruit is different: recognizing rigpa, developing it & integrating it. Just like the other two series.

These methods working with the mind emphasize different methodologies as the main toolbox as opposed to the other two series who rely not so much or in detail on training the conceptual mind as much as the "mind series instructions". The other two series expect the student to leave concepts behind much quicker for recognition. Though they all return to them for progress after recognition but still semde uses concepts much more in it's methods all the way. The other point I made was that the concepts in semde stages can seem to be oppositional as you progress, though in the end they unify well. There is a good reason for that.

Those 'mental judgements' are concepts. In the other two series there is not such a long roadmap involving so much concepts. You either get it or try again with various methods at various stages on progress orask the guru to troubleshoot. All 3 aim for rigpa but semde uses concepts (judgements etc.) much more & longer than the other two, hence Jigmed Lingpa's characterization so & the name given to that series.