simhanada wrote: oldbob wrote:
In the DC, I am aware of current live courses offered in the secondary practices of the Vajra Dance, Yantra Yoga, Rushens, Semzins, Mandarava, Tara and Chod, as well as what is being taught by ChNNR in his current webcasts. I am sure that there are additional subjects being taught in live courses that I am not aware of. I believe that all live courses are offered on Norbunet. You should subscribe to Norbunet.
The primary practices are the atiyoga practices. Guruyoga, Semzins, Vajra Dance, Rushens, Yantra Yoga etc. The secondary practices are the Vajrayana ones, Mandarava, Tara, Guru Dragphur etc
Dear Venerable Simhanada, all and ALL,
Homage to the Masters.
For many people, I think this issue is a “dead horse,” and so I sincerely apologize to them for all this redundant blah-blah. Since Venerable Simhanada is still riding this horse, maybe it is not a dead horse, and needs to be looked at. The key point is that many new-comers attend a Direct Introduction, through the World-Wide Transmission, on the web. This fully empowers them to do Guru Yoga, to practice Dzogchen. If they are then told that Yantra Yoga and the Vajra Dance are primary practices, they may then feel that they MUST attend a retreat and learn Yantra Yoga and the Vajra Dance in order to really practice Dzogchen. For people of means, this is not an issue. For a poor person this could entail a real sacrifice (selling the gold in their teeth, etc.) and so for this reason it is important to clarify what are the primary and secondary practices of the Dzogchen Community, and make this big blah-blah.
Venerable Simhanada, it is important that you have the opportunity to express your view so that others, including me, can compare this to their views and hopefully learn from the experience. This learning would be to correct their view if they are wrong, or to be confirmed in their view if they are right. This is the benefit of an open dialog within the protected space of Dharma Wheel. At the same time, we need to be mindful that perhaps right and wrong are relative terms and can depend upon the position of the observer.
As regards primary and secondary practices within the Dzogchen Community the position of the observer, explains a lot. If someone is a teacher of Yantra Yoga or Vajra Dance (or in their posse), then it is easy to understand why these might be presented as primary practices. If individuals who are also power people in the DC are also teachers of Yantra Yoga and Vajra Dance, then it is easy to understand how, historically, most of the non
ChNNR / Khentse, teaching offerings of the DC are Yantra Yoga and Vajra Dance. This is slowly changing but has been a characteristic of the DC for a very long time.
Lungpa has written: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=6807&p=93402#p93397
Re: Yantra Yoga - 2 DVDs set
Postby Lhug-Pa » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:56 am
Alpha, I think it is implied that there are basically three types of practices:
1) The Main Practice:
2) Indispensable secondary practices:
Such as Song of the Vajra, Yantra Yoga; and perhaps Ganapuja and Rushen.
3) All other secondary practices.
Simhanada, the key point is that there are other views than yours. When you put forward your view, I sent you a PM suggesting that we look at this in private, if you wanted to. My thought was to spare you embarrassment. I wrote:
Nice to meet you on Dharma Wheel. My real name is ----- and I am at ------, or ------ on Skype. You can call me at any time from 8AM to 11PM East coast time, if you would like to talk, and explain yourself.
If it is agreeable to you, perhaps it is better if we discuss this privately. I am also happy to discuss this publicly if you prefer.
There seem to be several views about what are the secondary practices of the DC. If my views are mistaken, I am very happy to correct them, both privately and publicly. I hope you feel the same about your views.
Could you please inform me as to where your views about secondary practices come from?
If your views are coming from ChNNR, could you please reference a written source, or if you heard it during a retreat, what retreat and what day, if possible.
If your views are coming from an individual in the DC, privately or in a course, could you please cite, from whom, and when.
I have always heard ChNNR say that Guru Yoga is the primary practice. Sometimes sounding the Ah is mentioned, as well as singing the song of the Vajra, as an expression of Guru Yoga, but Rinpoche is always saying that Guru Yoga, being in the state of the Master, is the primary practice. This is the only practice that he is actually asking us to do.
He restated this several times in his talk yesterday, 8/23/2012 which I listened to in replay. I suggest that you do the same.
Also, I have never heard anyone make a differentiator between Atiyoga practices and Vajrayana practices as a divider between primary and secondary practices. I have also never heard anyone divide up the practices of the DC into Atiyoga practices and Vajrayana practices, as you are doing.
These things are important, because what we are publishing as fact, if not fact, in fact,
could condition the practice of new-comers and this is not good.
If you do not want to discuss this in private, that is fine, but the next step will be to raise these issues in public.
Perhaps you were misinformed, and this should be clarified, both for your good and for the good of others.
Simhanada declined to reply.
This issue is important because it is fundamental to the understanding of Dzogchen (which cannot be understood in words) in words.
Direct introduction is the key point for "understanding" Dzogchen.
The state of the Teacher is transmitted to the state of the student.
Guru Yoga is that state.
Guru Yoga is being in that state: instant presence.
This is experienced when sounding the Ah, singing the Song of the Vajra, performing the Vajra Dance, or performing Yantra Yoga, while in that state.
Whatever you do while in the state of instant presence is Guru Yoga.
The short, medium, or long Tuns are more formal ways of introducing that state. Taking the three lights from Guru Rinpoche, as the embodiment of all Teachers, is both symbolic of, and the actual experience of, the state of the Master.
Being in instant presence, Guru Yoga, 24/7, is the key point of Dzogchen. This is why Guru Yoga is spoken of as being the primary practice.
Whatever you do within the state of instant presence is a Dzogchen practice, including those structured experiences we normally associate with practice.
I am completely content with Guru Yoga as my only practice.
That said, sometimes I also like to do the secondary practices, as practiced within Guru Yoga, for change and diversion. Sometimes I like to do collective practices with others.
Yantra Yoga, and the breathing exercises, are useful to clear the psychic nerves and channels so, as to stabilize the meditative qualities of bliss, clarity and non-dual awareness.. The Vajra Dance is useful to establish integration with movement. The Song of the Vajra is useful to establish integration with singing. Creative visualization, Rushens, Purification of the Six Lokas, Chod and the Zer Nga, etc. are useful to establish inner and outer emptiness. The Semde, Longde, and Menak practices as well as, Yangti and Togal are useful as practices which deepen and enrich the experience of instant presence.
None of these secondary practices are indispensable for Dzogchen. A new-comer, taking World-Wide Transmission, and then learning the various other symbolic forms of Guru Yoga, has what they need to practice Dzogchen. Actually, just the WWT is enough if it is maintained 24/7. All other practices are secondary. All other practices are to develop confidence in, and stabilize the continuance of, Direct Introduction, Guru Yoga.
Venerable Simhanada, perhaps now you understand why Guru Yoga is the primary practice of the DC. You also understand why Yantra Yoga and the Vajra Dance are presented by some people as primary practices, perhaps for the politics of their own financial and power gains.
Again, these are only the limited views of one person, who is a very lazy, distracted bozo, without attainments or good qualities, and I sincerely welcome the comments of those who are more studied and practiced, so I might correct any wrong views.
Hope this helps,
Long life to the Masters, may they live long, in good health and with success in all things.