Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby magnagei » Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:59 pm

Pero wrote:
magnagei wrote:Thanks Josef, so to follow up, singing things like the six syllables of Samantabhadra or SoV or vajraguru isn't a problem if someone might hear?

You probably didn't mean these but just in case, the mantras in the guruyogas of Padmasambhava (done in medium tun for example) are secret.


Yes actually I was also referring to that. Sorry to basically keep asking the same question a hundred times, but I want to be sure. Those mantras are sung pretty loudly, now I'm not walking up to my mother or sister and saying "Hey, check out these cool mantras" but they might hear some of what I am singing through my closed door. Is this a problem?


Also that most interesting man was pretty hilarious.
magnagei
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:56 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby simhanada » Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:08 pm

magnagei wrote:Yes actually I was also referring to that. Sorry to basically keep asking the same question a hundred times, but I want to be sure. Those mantras are sung pretty loudly, now I'm not walking up to my mother or sister and saying "Hey, check out these cool mantras" but they might hear some of what I am singing through my closed door. Is this a problem?


Not a problem. More important is not to disturb them. If they are cool with you chanting and the noise carrying a bit I would not worry to much. If it is a problem you don't have to sing very loudly. Also, lots of the practises don't involve a lot of sound, you can do them instead.
simhanada
 
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:23 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:26 pm

Dear all and All, :namaste:

Note: This is in reply to a question posed in the "Beginners ~ how to begin?", thread, but I think it belongs here.

Sönam wrote:
Wesley1982 wrote:Beginners/Novice ~ how to begin the dzogchen practices and meditations?..wondering, thanks :namaste:


One may also consider that he has already begun ... what's next? what did tell me the master?

Sönam


Identify a Dzogchen Master from whom you want to take direct Introduction, and do this.

Follow that Teacher's advice.

For the DC, the main practice is Guru Yoga.

Then select teachings to practice, from the practices you are taught, as appropriate to your circumstances.

In the DC, Guru Yoga is always the key point of practice, as it is spoken of as including the essence of all other practices.
Om Ah Hum is spoken of as being the essence of all mantras.

In the DC, I am aware of current live courses offered in the secondary practices of the Vajra Dance, Yantra Yoga, Rushens, Semzins, Mandarava, Tara and Chod, as well as what is being taught by ChNNR in his current webcasts. I am sure that there are additional subjects being taught in live courses that I am not aware of. I believe that all live courses are offered on Norbunet. You should subcribe to Norbunet.

Live courses are also offered in the base level, and advanced levels, of the Santi Maha Sangha to those who want to study, and practice, this path. At least one SMS Teacher is offering courses on-line. At least one Gar is offering group practice on-line.

For those who are interested and have the time, technical capacity, and perseverance, the teachings from the recent webcasts are available on the SSI webcast replays. The replays of the webcasts cannot be saved directly or replayed in part, but have to be started from the beginning, each time, if you want to replay a section, or have a dropout in the data flow. This is difficult, but doable.

So a newcomer, member, might listen to these replays, get the transmission from a live webcast, and then do the practices taught in that previous webcast / retreat.

If all the previous webcasts / retreats, were made available on-line, then a newcomer, member, could listen to the teachings they were interested in, get the transmission and then practice those teachings, as appropriate.

Perhaps it might be helpful to know what practices have been taught by ChNNR, in the previous retreats.

Perhaps a sensible way to do this might be for SSI to:

1. Publish the list of retreats.
2. Prepare a content list for the practices / subjects taught in each retreat.
3. Publish a unified list of the practices as taught in each retreat.
4. Prepare an, as spoken, transcript of each retreat.
5. Prepare an edited transcript of each retreat.
6. Prepare a concordance by subject matter, practice, and key word / phrase, for all retreats.
6. Prepare practice materials (print, audio, video) for all practices.
7. Publish these practice materials in the appropriate languages of the DC (French, Italian, English, Russian, Polish, Spanish, German, and Greek, and others as appropriate).
8. Identify individuals who can teach these practices and then publish this list (as permitted).
9. Sponsor courses, on line, and live, as requested by the various centers of the DC.
10. Pay for all of this by having a two tier method of distribution: a) low cost, no frills, and b) high cost, high production value.

Subject to the approval of ChNNR, if SSI does not want to do this, perhaps it is possible to do, at low cost / no cost, by crowd-sourcing volunteer support from the 3000 people listening to the webcasts.

Hope this helps.

Long life to the Dzogchen Masters, may they live long, in good health, and with success in all things.

:heart:
oldbob
 
Posts: 518
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:54 pm

oldbob wrote:So a newcomer, member, might listen to these replays, get the transmission from a live webcast, and then do the practices taught in that previous webcast / retreat.

If all the previous webcasts / retreats, were made available on-line, then a newcomer, member, could listen to the teachings they were interested in, get the transmission and then practice those teachings, as appropriate.

I don't think that's how it works. In general I think that listening to a replay of a particular webcast doesn't enable you to practice what was taught if you haven't attended.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:30 pm

Pero wrote:
oldbob wrote:So a newcomer, member, might listen to these replays, get the transmission from a live webcast, and then do the practices taught in that previous webcast / retreat.

If all the previous webcasts / retreats, were made available on-line, then a newcomer, member, could listen to the teachings they were interested in, get the transmission and then practice those teachings, as appropriate.

I don't think that's how it works. In general I think that listening to a replay of a particular webcast doesn't enable you to practice what was taught if you haven't attended.


Hi Pero,

Good question. Perhaps without a live lung they would not function. :smile: It is up to Rinpoche.

"If all the previous webcasts / retreats, were made available on-line, then a newcomer, member, could listen to the teachings they were interested in, get the transmission and then practice those teachings, as appropriate."
oldbob
 
Posts: 518
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby simhanada » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:29 pm

oldbob wrote:In the DC, I am aware of current live courses offered in the secondary practices of the Vajra Dance, Yantra Yoga, Rushens, Semzins, Mandarava, Tara and Chod, as well as what is being taught by ChNNR in his current webcasts. I am sure that there are additional subjects being taught in live courses that I am not aware of. I believe that all live courses are offered on Norbunet. You should subcribe to Norbunet.
:heart:


The primary practices are the atiyoga practices. Guruyoga, Semzins, Vajra Dance, Rushens, Yantra Yoga etc. The secondary practices are the Vajrayana ones, Mandarava, Tara, Guru Dragphur etc
simhanada
 
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:23 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby underthetree » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:39 pm

Slightly off the wall question:

Does ChNN Rinpoche teach a practice of Yeshe Tsogyal?

By the way, the help I've received so far in this thread has been really generous and... helpful. Thank you.
User avatar
underthetree
 
Posts: 220
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:44 pm
Location: UK

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:36 pm

underthetree wrote:Slightly off the wall question:

Does ChNN Rinpoche teach a practice of Yeshe Tsogyal?.


Not that I am aware of.

M
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11781
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:04 pm

?

I seem to recall he wrote about her in PV but I'm not home right now and can't check.
Karma Dondrup Tashi
 
Posts: 1014
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:30 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:?

I seem to recall he wrote about her in PV but I'm not home right now and can't check.


Sure, but there are no practices in the DC that involve her specifically.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11781
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherlock » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:01 pm

Any of you tuned into the Mandarava Ganapuja webcast just now? :twothumbsup:
Sherlock
 
Posts: 792
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:14 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:11 pm

simhanada wrote:
oldbob wrote:In the DC, I am aware of current live courses offered in the secondary practices of the Vajra Dance, Yantra Yoga, Rushens, Semzins, Mandarava, Tara and Chod, as well as what is being taught by ChNNR in his current webcasts. I am sure that there are additional subjects being taught in live courses that I am not aware of. I believe that all live courses are offered on Norbunet. You should subscribe to Norbunet.
:heart:


The primary practices are the atiyoga practices. Guruyoga, Semzins, Vajra Dance, Rushens, Yantra Yoga etc. The secondary practices are the Vajrayana ones, Mandarava, Tara, Guru Dragphur etc


Dear Venerable Simhanada, all and ALL,

Homage to the Masters.

For many people, I think this issue is a “dead horse,” and so I sincerely apologize to them for all this redundant blah-blah. Since Venerable Simhanada is still riding this horse, maybe it is not a dead horse, and needs to be looked at. The key point is that many new-comers attend a Direct Introduction, through the World-Wide Transmission, on the web. This fully empowers them to do Guru Yoga, to practice Dzogchen. If they are then told that Yantra Yoga and the Vajra Dance are primary practices, they may then feel that they MUST attend a retreat and learn Yantra Yoga and the Vajra Dance in order to really practice Dzogchen. For people of means, this is not an issue. For a poor person this could entail a real sacrifice (selling the gold in their teeth, etc.) and so for this reason it is important to clarify what are the primary and secondary practices of the Dzogchen Community, and make this big blah-blah. :smile:

Venerable Simhanada, it is important that you have the opportunity to express your view so that others, including me, can compare this to their views and hopefully learn from the experience. This learning would be to correct their view if they are wrong, or to be confirmed in their view if they are right. This is the benefit of an open dialog within the protected space of Dharma Wheel. At the same time, we need to be mindful that perhaps right and wrong are relative terms and can depend upon the position of the observer.

As regards primary and secondary practices within the Dzogchen Community the position of the observer, explains a lot. If someone is a teacher of Yantra Yoga or Vajra Dance (or in their posse), then it is easy to understand why these might be presented as primary practices. If individuals who are also power people in the DC are also teachers of Yantra Yoga and Vajra Dance, then it is easy to understand how, historically, most of the non ChNNR / Khentse, teaching offerings of the DC are Yantra Yoga and Vajra Dance. This is slowly changing but has been a characteristic of the DC for a very long time.

Lungpa has written:

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=6807&p=93402#p93397



Re: Yantra Yoga - 2 DVDs set

Postby Lhug-Pa » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:56 am
Alpha, I think it is implied that there are basically three types of practices:

1) The Main Practice:

Guru Yoga

2) Indispensable secondary practices:

Such as Song of the Vajra, Yantra Yoga; and perhaps Ganapuja and Rushen.

3) All other secondary practices.

--------------------------------------------------

Simhanada, the key point is that there are other views than yours. When you put forward your view, I sent you a PM suggesting that we look at this in private, if you wanted to. My thought was to spare you embarrassment. I wrote:

Dear Simhanada,

:namaste:

Nice to meet you on Dharma Wheel. My real name is ----- and I am at ------, or ------ on Skype. You can call me at any time from 8AM to 11PM East coast time, if you would like to talk, and explain yourself.

If it is agreeable to you, perhaps it is better if we discuss this privately. I am also happy to discuss this publicly if you prefer.

There seem to be several views about what are the secondary practices of the DC. If my views are mistaken, I am very happy to correct them, both privately and publicly. I hope you feel the same about your views.

Could you please inform me as to where your views about secondary practices come from?

If your views are coming from ChNNR, could you please reference a written source, or if you heard it during a retreat, what retreat and what day, if possible.
If your views are coming from an individual in the DC, privately or in a course, could you please cite, from whom, and when.

I have always heard ChNNR say that Guru Yoga is the primary practice. Sometimes sounding the Ah is mentioned, as well as singing the song of the Vajra, as an expression of Guru Yoga, but Rinpoche is always saying that Guru Yoga, being in the state of the Master, is the primary practice. This is the only practice that he is actually asking us to do.

He restated this several times in his talk yesterday, 8/23/2012 which I listened to in replay. I suggest that you do the same.

Also, I have never heard anyone make a differentiator between Atiyoga practices and Vajrayana practices as a divider between primary and secondary practices. I have also never heard anyone divide up the practices of the DC into Atiyoga practices and Vajrayana practices, as you are doing.

These things are important, because what we are publishing as fact, if not fact, in fact, :smile: could condition the practice of new-comers and this is not good.

If you do not want to discuss this in private, that is fine, but the next step will be to raise these issues in public.

Perhaps you were misinformed, and this should be clarified, both for your good and for the good of others.

Yours truly,

-----

-------------------------------------------
Simhanada declined to reply.

This issue is important because it is fundamental to the understanding of Dzogchen (which cannot be understood in words) in words.

Direct introduction is the key point for "understanding" Dzogchen.

The state of the Teacher is transmitted to the state of the student.

Guru Yoga is that state.

Guru Yoga is being in that state: instant presence.

This is experienced when sounding the Ah, singing the Song of the Vajra, performing the Vajra Dance, or performing Yantra Yoga, while in that state.

Whatever you do while in the state of instant presence is Guru Yoga.

The short, medium, or long Tuns are more formal ways of introducing that state. Taking the three lights from Guru Rinpoche, as the embodiment of all Teachers, is both symbolic of, and the actual experience of, the state of the Master.

Being in instant presence, Guru Yoga, 24/7, is the key point of Dzogchen. This is why Guru Yoga is spoken of as being the primary practice.

Whatever you do within the state of instant presence is a Dzogchen practice, including those structured experiences we normally associate with practice.

I am completely content with Guru Yoga as my only practice.

That said, sometimes I also like to do the secondary practices, as practiced within Guru Yoga, for change and diversion. Sometimes I like to do collective practices with others.

Yantra Yoga, and the breathing exercises, are useful to clear the psychic nerves and channels so, as to stabilize the meditative qualities of bliss, clarity and non-dual awareness.. The Vajra Dance is useful to establish integration with movement. The Song of the Vajra is useful to establish integration with singing. Creative visualization, Rushens, Purification of the Six Lokas, Chod and the Zer Nga, etc. are useful to establish inner and outer emptiness. The Semde, Longde, and Menak practices as well as, Yangti and Togal are useful as practices which deepen and enrich the experience of instant presence.

None of these secondary practices are indispensable for Dzogchen. A new-comer, taking World-Wide Transmission, and then learning the various other symbolic forms of Guru Yoga, has what they need to practice Dzogchen. Actually, just the WWT is enough if it is maintained 24/7. All other practices are secondary. All other practices are to develop confidence in, and stabilize the continuance of, Direct Introduction, Guru Yoga.

Venerable Simhanada, perhaps now you understand why Guru Yoga is the primary practice of the DC. You also understand why Yantra Yoga and the Vajra Dance are presented by some people as primary practices, perhaps for the politics of their own financial and power gains.

Again, these are only the limited views of one person, who is a very lazy, distracted bozo, without attainments or good qualities, and I sincerely welcome the comments of those who are more studied and practiced, so I might correct any wrong views.

:namaste:

Hope this helps,

Long life to the Masters, may they live long, in good health and with success in all things.

:heart:
oldbob
 
Posts: 518
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Blue Garuda » Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:55 pm

oldbob wrote:
Venerable Simhanada, perhaps now you understand why Guru Yoga is the primary practice of the DC. You also understand why Yantra Yoga and the Vajra Dance are presented by some people as primary practices, perhaps for the politics of their own financial and power gains.


:heart:


That's quite a claim. Surely you have reported these people to Rinpoche.

Where does he say that practices other than Anuyoga are 'secondary'?
Left
Blue Garuda
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:23 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:01 pm

oldbob wrote:Also, I have never heard anyone make a differentiator between Atiyoga practices and Vajrayana practices as a divider between primary and secondary practices.

I guess that's true.

I have also never heard anyone divide up the practices of the DC into Atiyoga practices and Vajrayana practices, as you are doing.

But this is pretty strange. Mandarava for example is not an Atiyoga practice per se.

Simhanada declined to reply.

Are you sure about that? On this board you do not get an email notification that you've received a PM. So if someone doesn't log in regularly they will not know they've received a PM. And even if you do log in regularly it's pretty easy to miss that you've received a PM if you don't have the pop up notification enabled.

Venerable Simhanada, perhaps now you understand why Guru Yoga is the primary practice of the DC. You also understand why Yantra Yoga and the Vajra Dance are presented by some people as primary practices, perhaps for the politics of their own financial and power gains.

I've never heard this anywhere. It's a little odd but I think that was just Simhanada's idea and had nothing to do with politics or whatever.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:14 pm

Blue Garuda wrote:
oldbob wrote:
Venerable Simhanada, perhaps now you understand why Guru Yoga is the primary practice of the DC. You also understand why Yantra Yoga and the Vajra Dance are presented by some people as primary practices, perhaps for the politics of their own financial and power gains.


:heart:


That's quite a claim. Surely you have reported these people to Rinpoche.


I sincerely hope they haven't. ChNN really has much better things to do than to investigate the muck we enjoy raking.

I'm not saying it to dis oldbob, btw. I wholeheartedly agree with their position. And I quite enjoy the tone of their posts. It's just I think Rinpoche should be approached when and only when there's really something essential for the DC at stake (or, needless to say, when we encounter problems in our practice that other, more experienced practitioners cannot help us overcome). So many people waste his time with their silly affairs - which they are fully capable of sorting out on their own.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
 
Posts: 585
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: Mudhole? Slimy? My home, this is.

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Lhasa » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:25 am

oldbob wrote:
simhanada wrote:
oldbob wrote:In the DC, I am aware of current live courses offered in the secondary practices of the Vajra Dance, Yantra Yoga, Rushens, Semzins, Mandarava, Tara and Chod, as well as what is being taught by ChNNR in his current webcasts. I am sure that there are additional subjects being taught in live courses that I am not aware of. I believe that all live courses are offered on Norbunet. You should subscribe to Norbunet.
:heart:


The primary practices are the atiyoga practices. Guruyoga, Semzins, Vajra Dance, Rushens, Yantra Yoga etc. The secondary practices are the Vajrayana ones, Mandarava, Tara, Guru Dragphur etc


Dear Venerable Simhanada, all and ALL,

Homage to the Masters.

For many people, I think this issue is a “dead horse,” and so I sincerely apologize to them for all this redundant blah-blah. Since Venerable Simhanada is still riding this horse, maybe it is not a dead horse, and needs to be looked at. The key point is that many new-comers attend a Direct Introduction, through the World-Wide Transmission, on the web. This fully empowers them to do Guru Yoga, to practice Dzogchen. If they are then told that Yantra Yoga and the Vajra Dance are primary practices, they may then feel that they MUST attend a retreat and learn Yantra Yoga and the Vajra Dance in order to really practice Dzogchen. For people of means, this is not an issue. For a poor person this could entail a real sacrifice (selling the gold in their teeth, etc.) and so for this reason it is important to clarify what are the primary and secondary practices of the Dzogchen Community, and make this big blah-blah. :smile:

Venerable Simhanada, it is important that you have the opportunity to express your view so that others, including me, can compare this to their views and hopefully learn from the experience. This learning would be to correct their view if they are wrong, or to be confirmed in their view if they are right. This is the benefit of an open dialog within the protected space of Dharma Wheel. At the same time, we need to be mindful that perhaps right and wrong are relative terms and can depend upon the position of the observer.

As regards primary and secondary practices within the Dzogchen Community the position of the observer, explains a lot. If someone is a teacher of Yantra Yoga or Vajra Dance (or in their posse), then it is easy to understand why these might be presented as primary practices. If individuals who are also power people in the DC are also teachers of Yantra Yoga and Vajra Dance, then it is easy to understand how, historically, most of the non ChNNR / Khentse, teaching offerings of the DC are Yantra Yoga and Vajra Dance. This is slowly changing but has been a characteristic of the DC for a very long time.

Lungpa has written:

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=6807&p=93402#p93397



Re: Yantra Yoga - 2 DVDs set

Postby Lhug-Pa » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:56 am
Alpha, I think it is implied that there are basically three types of practices:

1) The Main Practice:

Guru Yoga

2) Indispensable secondary practices:

Such as Song of the Vajra, Yantra Yoga; and perhaps Ganapuja and Rushen.

3) All other secondary practices.

--------------------------------------------------

Simhanada, the key point is that there are other views than yours. When you put forward your view, I sent you a PM suggesting that we look at this in private, if you wanted to. My thought was to spare you embarrassment. I wrote:

Dear Simhanada,

:namaste:

Nice to meet you on Dharma Wheel. My real name is ----- and I am at ------, or ------ on Skype. You can call me at any time from 8AM to 11PM East coast time, if you would like to talk, and explain yourself.

If it is agreeable to you, perhaps it is better if we discuss this privately. I am also happy to discuss this publicly if you prefer.

There seem to be several views about what are the secondary practices of the DC. If my views are mistaken, I am very happy to correct them, both privately and publicly. I hope you feel the same about your views.

Could you please inform me as to where your views about secondary practices come from?

If your views are coming from ChNNR, could you please reference a written source, or if you heard it during a retreat, what retreat and what day, if possible.
If your views are coming from an individual in the DC, privately or in a course, could you please cite, from whom, and when.

I have always heard ChNNR say that Guru Yoga is the primary practice. Sometimes sounding the Ah is mentioned, as well as singing the song of the Vajra, as an expression of Guru Yoga, but Rinpoche is always saying that Guru Yoga, being in the state of the Master, is the primary practice. This is the only practice that he is actually asking us to do.

He restated this several times in his talk yesterday, 8/23/2012 which I listened to in replay. I suggest that you do the same.

Also, I have never heard anyone make a differentiator between Atiyoga practices and Vajrayana practices as a divider between primary and secondary practices. I have also never heard anyone divide up the practices of the DC into Atiyoga practices and Vajrayana practices, as you are doing.

These things are important, because what we are publishing as fact, if not fact, in fact, :smile: could condition the practice of new-comers and this is not good.

If you do not want to discuss this in private, that is fine, but the next step will be to raise these issues in public.

Perhaps you were misinformed, and this should be clarified, both for your good and for the good of others.

Yours truly,

-----

-------------------------------------------
Simhanada declined to reply.

This issue is important because it is fundamental to the understanding of Dzogchen (which cannot be understood in words) in words.

Direct introduction is the key point for "understanding" Dzogchen.

The state of the Teacher is transmitted to the state of the student.

Guru Yoga is that state.

Guru Yoga is being in that state: instant presence.

This is experienced when sounding the Ah, singing the Song of the Vajra, performing the Vajra Dance, or performing Yantra Yoga, while in that state.

Whatever you do while in the state of instant presence is Guru Yoga.

The short, medium, or long Tuns are more formal ways of introducing that state. Taking the three lights from Guru Rinpoche, as the embodiment of all Teachers, is both symbolic of, and the actual experience of, the state of the Master.

Being in instant presence, Guru Yoga, 24/7, is the key point of Dzogchen. This is why Guru Yoga is spoken of as being the primary practice.

Whatever you do within the state of instant presence is a Dzogchen practice, including those structured experiences we normally associate with practice.

I am completely content with Guru Yoga as my only practice.

That said, sometimes I also like to do the secondary practices, as practiced within Guru Yoga, for change and diversion. Sometimes I like to do collective practices with others.

Yantra Yoga, and the breathing exercises, are useful to clear the psychic nerves and channels so, as to stabilize the meditative qualities of bliss, clarity and non-dual awareness.. The Vajra Dance is useful to establish integration with movement. The Song of the Vajra is useful to establish integration with singing. Creative visualization, Rushens, Purification of the Six Lokas, Chod and the Zer Nga, etc. are useful to establish inner and outer emptiness. The Semde, Longde, and Menak practices as well as, Yangti and Togal are useful as practices which deepen and enrich the experience of instant presence.

None of these secondary practices are indispensable for Dzogchen. A new-comer, taking World-Wide Transmission, and then learning the various other symbolic forms of Guru Yoga, has what they need to practice Dzogchen. Actually, just the WWT is enough if it is maintained 24/7. All other practices are secondary. All other practices are to develop confidence in, and stabilize the continuance of, Direct Introduction, Guru Yoga.

Venerable Simhanada, perhaps now you understand why Guru Yoga is the primary practice of the DC. You also understand why Yantra Yoga and the Vajra Dance are presented by some people as primary practices, perhaps for the politics of their own financial and power gains.

Again, these are only the limited views of one person, who is a very lazy, distracted bozo, without attainments or good qualities, and I sincerely welcome the comments of those who are more studied and practiced, so I might correct any wrong views.

:namaste:

Hope this helps,

Long life to the Masters, may they live long, in good health and with success in all things.

:heart:


Speaking as a newcomer, this is an excellent summary of the practices and the reasons for doing them. Thank you, oldbob :twothumbsup:
Lhasa
 
Posts: 381
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:51 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby simhanada » Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:56 am

oldbob wrote:
Dear Venerable Simhanada, all and ALL,



I am hardly venerable.

oldbob wrote:Homage to the Masters.

For many people, I think this issue is a “dead horse,” and so I sincerely apologize to them for all this redundant blah-blah. Since Venerable Simhanada is still riding this horse, maybe it is not a dead horse, and needs to be looked at. The key point is that many new-comers attend a Direct Introduction, through the World-Wide Transmission, on the web. This fully empowers them to do Guru Yoga, to practice Dzogchen. If they are then told that Yantra Yoga and the Vajra Dance are primary practices, they may then feel that they MUST attend a retreat and learn Yantra Yoga and the Vajra Dance in order to really practice Dzogchen. For people of means, this is not an issue. For a poor person this could entail a real sacrifice (selling the gold in their teeth, etc.) and so for this reason it is important to clarify what are the primary and secondary practices of the Dzogchen Community, and make this big blah-blah. :smile:



I formed my stance(if you can call it that), based on a few things.

It was at a time while going to retreats that people seemed to forget all the atiyoga practices Rinpoche was teaching and think there was either Guruyoga or Tantric Practices. They seemed to forget there were all these other indispensable practices for entering into the state.

Also, after hearing Rinpoche introduce the lungs at the end of retreats as secondary practices. Practices to aid in overcoming everyday problems in our life. He has said there are main practices(plural) and secondary practices. My understanding of him saying "main practices" is that they are the Ati practices, wether that is Ati-guruyoga, Rushen, Semdzin, Vajradance etc.

oldbob wrote:Venerable Simhanada, it is important that you have the opportunity to express your view so that others, including me, can compare this to their views and hopefully learn from the experience. This learning would be to correct their view if they are wrong, or to be confirmed in their view if they are right. This is the benefit of an open dialog within the protected space of Dharma Wheel. At the same time, we need to be mindful that perhaps right and wrong are relative terms and can depend upon the position of the observer.

As regards primary and secondary practices within the Dzogchen Community the position of the observer, explains a lot. If someone is a teacher of Yantra Yoga or Vajra Dance (or in their posse), then it is easy to understand why these might be presented as primary practices. If individuals who are also power people in the DC are also teachers of Yantra Yoga and Vajra Dance, then it is easy to understand how, historically, most of the non ChNNR / Khentse, teaching offerings of the DC are Yantra Yoga and Vajra Dance. This is slowly changing but has been a characteristic of the DC for a very long time.

Lungpa has written:

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=6807&p=93402#p93397



Re: Yantra Yoga - 2 DVDs set

Postby Lhug-Pa » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:56 am
Alpha, I think it is implied that there are basically three types of practices:

1) The Main Practice:

Guru Yoga

2) Indispensable secondary practices:

Such as Song of the Vajra, Yantra Yoga; and perhaps Ganapuja and Rushen.

3) All other secondary practices.

--------------------------------------------------


I'm happy with Lhug Pa's division too.

oldbob wrote:Simhanada, the key point is that there are other views than yours. When you put forward your view, I sent you a PM suggesting that we look at this in private, if you wanted to. My thought was to spare you embarrassment. I wrote:


I have a life. I don't know exactly when you wrote the mail to me. I saw and read it last night and thought I'd address it in the morning.

Its now morning here and here I am addressing it on the board rather that privately as you wished.

oldbob wrote:Simhanada declined to reply.


At no point did I do this.
simhanada
 
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:23 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby simhanada » Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:42 am

Anyway, I agree. I imagine Rinpoche would be happy if all we did was Ati-Guruyoga in the correct way.
simhanada
 
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:23 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:46 am

simhanada wrote: My understanding of him saying "main practices" is that they are the Ati practices, wether that is Ati-guruyoga, Rushen, Semdzin, Vajradance etc..


Just a small comment, I think when ChNNR says "main practice" he means Semde, Longde and Mengakde. Rushan and Semdzin are actually preliminaries to the Mengakde.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3082
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby simhanada » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:49 am

heart wrote:Just a small comment, I think when ChNNR says "main practice" he means Semde, Longde and Mengakde. Rushan and Semdzin are actually preliminaries to the Mengakde.
/magnus


Cool, thankyou for the clarification
simhanada
 
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:23 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Dzogchen

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests

>