Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:19 am

username wrote:No, just focusing on dark garuda as related to ati. On jenang there is brief versions and there are also certain types where getting one gives the key to a whole class as specified by the guru AFAIK.

What do you mean with class?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Adamantine » Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:26 am

Thanks for the replies. So without the wang and lung, what can one really do with this practice that would bear any result? I just am confused about the point of only listening if it's important to have the wang for the practice.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby username » Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:38 am

Pero, initiating one into a whole group of terma and/or tantra as specified by the guru on such occasion that usually would need much longer separate initiations AFAIK BUT here Rinpoche meant he does not want to make this single initiation and practice brief. Like he made a brief version of his own Mandarava terma.

adamantine, it is medicinal related to an earlier retreat but also the main point being broadcast is about taking garuda as a dzogchen path to enlightenment so in a way more important to learn that view and as he said today that view/teaching also applies to his usual teaching on the shorter terma version of Adzum Drukpa Garuda, he considers apt and powerful for modern times, for which he always gives the lung on the last day.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:03 am

I listened to 70 minutes of the replay and it was donwang, not jenang. I'm a little bit confused though, in the past he gave don dbang for Amitayus and Shitro, which also aren't his termas. Anyway, he will give lung for the practice of Black Garuda and explanation, and we will be able to practice it. However he will not give lung for action mantras during webcast, because for using them it's necessary to have received the initiation.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby username » Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:14 am

Pero wrote:he will give lung for the practice of Black Garuda and explanation, and we will be able to practice it.


For Garuda practice to be effective particularly on it's specialties one needs the action mantra and before doing that effectively one needs either to do a personal intense retreat or over time accumulate large numbers of the mantras of the practice before action mantras work. Same with GreenTara, only then it really works as intended and focused. That is what ChNNR always teaches. Of course one can practice as in general presence and Dzogchen POV as with anything but that's something else. So depends what is meant by practicing it.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:00 am

username wrote:
Pero wrote:he will give lung for the practice of Black Garuda and explanation, and we will be able to practice it.


For Garuda practice to be effective particularly on it's specialties one needs the action mantra and before doing that effectively one needs either to do a personal intense retreat or over time accumulate large numbers of the mantras of the practice before action mantras work. Same with GreenTara, only then it really works as intended and focused. That is what ChNNR always teaches. Of course one can practice as in general presence and Dzogchen POV as with anything but that's something else. So depends what is meant by practicing it.

I was not talking about Red Garuda but the Black Garuda which is what the retreat is about. Rinpoche said that the action mantras in this practice are related to the initiation and so he can't transmit them to people who didn't receive the initiation. And next to that of course, he also said that for the action mantras to function you have to do the main mantra sufficiently first. What is meant by practicing it is transforming oneself into the deity and reciting the mantra and to do that you need the lung and explanation.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby username » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:09 am

Pero wrote:he also said that for the action mantras to function you have to do the main mantra sufficiently first. What is meant by practicing it is transforming oneself into the deity and reciting the mantra and to do that you need the lung and explanation.


That's what I said and it's the same for Red Garuda and specified what he "always teaches" (Red not Black as it's new) also no difference in that regard as you imply. Not effective for it's intended practice targets achievable by the action mantra till very large enough numbers of practice mantra accumulated first.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:16 am

username wrote:
Pero wrote:he also said that for the action mantras to function you have to do the main mantra sufficiently first. What is meant by practicing it is transforming oneself into the deity and reciting the mantra and to do that you need the lung and explanation.


That's what I said and it's the same for Red Garuda and specified what he usually teaches (Red not Black as it's new) also no difference in that regard as you imply. Not effective for it's intended practice targets achievable by the action mantra till very large enough numbers of practice mantra accumulated first.

Dude, my point was simply that he said he is not going to transmit the action mantras but he is going to give lung for the main mantra and explanation for the main practice of Black Garuda. And since people will receive this they will be able to practice the main mantra of Black Garuda.
I don't know why you're complicating things so much.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby username » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:25 am

My initial point was how the effectiveness of the practice actually works and there are different meanings of practicing Garuda or indeed Ozer Chenma, before and after actual effective action mantra. A usual mistake when people doing Red Garuda is that for example they do the main mantra 500 times and then action mantra 500 too in a session. Whereas it is better to do the main mantra 1000 times and action mantra maybe only 10 times daily for months then once accomplished with some sign do more action mantras. Same for dark Garuda initiates.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby alpha » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:31 am

we know that in the other schools there is the traditional 3 year retreat where one starts with ngondro and gradually goes through all the other practices..

What about in dzogchen community?If one wants to dedicate some time to do retreat is there a standard schedule one has to follow ?Specifically what would those practices be which one does in the beginning ,in the middle and in the end?How would a long term retreat for a dzogchen practitioner look like?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Fa Dao » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:53 pm

Alpha..good question...I would also like to know the answer to that as well
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:20 pm

alpha wrote:we know that in the other schools there is the traditional 3 year retreat where one starts with ngondro and gradually goes through all the other practices..

What about in dzogchen community?If one wants to dedicate some time to do retreat is there a standard schedule one has to follow ?

Not really. I suppose if you wanted you could do the practices in the order they are presented in the Precious Vase.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby alpha » Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:09 pm

is there a text on chulen which describes the practice?

do you need additional permissions from CNNR to practice chulen apart from the mantra transmission?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:24 pm

alpha wrote:is there a text on chulen which describes the practice?

do you need additional permissions from CNNR to practice chulen apart from the mantra transmission?

There are two books on Mandarava that have chudlen practice described, one of them is more about the general practice and the other about the Mandarava tsa lung practices. If I remember right the second one has more on chudlen, but I think it's good to read both. You don't need any additional permission for the chudlen practice.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby alpha » Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:15 am

Is the chulen practice connected or done in the context of Mandarava practice?
Or is it possible to do chulen independently of any practice whenever is required or when one needs to?

Thank you Pero.

You seem to be very well informed and very quick to answer my questions.And i thank you for that.

May you achieve the rainbow body in this lifetime.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby alpha » Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:16 am

i Have another question related to guru yoga or more precisely to the prayers done in DC at the beginning of any practice.

In other lineages we know that at the beginning of any practice you would start with Refuge, Bodicitta ,Guru yoga and finish with dedication.

But here i noticed Rinpoche would only start with Guru Yoga.
Is it accurate to say that In DC Guru Yoga Takes the place of Refuge,Bodicitta because is done more from a rigpa point of view?I mean....i heard this being said before but i am not so sure...

Because i do not see any difference between this Ati Guru Yoga and for example the Guru Yoga done in Karma Kagyu.The only difference i see is in the methodology but not in essence.
In Karma Kagyu you would count many times then take empowerment and then at the end unite.
in Ati Guru Yoga is somehow the same .There are the phases of creating,radiating absorbing and uniting at the end.
The question is why is it called Ati Guru Yoga as opposed to all the other Guru Yogas who are not ATI.
Or is it called ATi purely based on the the fact that it belongs to the ATI system and not necessarily based on the difference in essence ?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:24 am

alpha wrote:Is the chulen practice connected or done in the context of Mandarava practice?
Or is it possible to do chulen independently of any practice whenever is required or when one needs to?


Yes this chudlen is in the context of Mandarava practice, you don't do it independently of it. Perhaps there are some other chudlen that don't require deity practice, maybe in Dra Thalgyur or Tshig Don Mdzod, but I don't know.

May you achieve the rainbow body in this lifetime.

You're welcome, thanks and likewise haha. :smile:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby username » Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:08 pm

There are 3 large categories of chulen based on the tri-kayas and in the ultimate dharmakaya one needs no food or pills but the essence is extracted from the ether earth and elements. There are other practices/recipes in Nyingma and Kagyu combined with other deities, not just Mandarava.

The ATI is just based on anu tantras which is itself condensed direct and immediate, inclusive of all lower yanas plus being in the ultimate knowledge of the real nature of mind and all. Lower yanas are not discarded but are subsets and the two stages are practiced in some large terma cycles.

Also when calling on guru deva & dakini at start, one intends refuge and the two bodhicittas. ChNNR says if you forget the details and merely enter into the real state even if in the middle of daily activity, the intention covers both refuge and bodhicittas. Of course in seated practice one needs these initial intentions as well as final dedications, this he often says is necessary as do other masters. Refuge tent at start protects, bodhicittas make practice effective and final dedication stops it being wasted later in other times and lifetimes as mere spent merit and benefits all and even oneself much more than if it was cashed in.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby alpha » Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:16 pm

excellent...thank you username..
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:56 pm

What Rinpoche calls Ati GY is just the GY with the white A. In one book he says that this is more Yangti style. What you're talking about is related to Rinpoche's terma on the GY of Garab Dorje. But in any case, there is refuge and bodhicitta, there just aren't any invocations for it. Refuge is Namo Guru etc., and bodhicitta you do with your intention. This is usually done at the beginning of every practice, after the purification.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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