Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sönam » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:29 pm

padma norbu wrote:
JinpaRangdrol wrote:In general, you can do Tsog/Ganapuja as often as you want.


I don't see the point of it, really. I understand the theoretical points, but I thoroughly disbelieve any and all of it, basically.


This is a funny sentence ...

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby padma norbu » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:34 pm

Sönam wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
JinpaRangdrol wrote:In general, you can do Tsog/Ganapuja as often as you want.


I don't see the point of it, really. I understand the theoretical points, but I thoroughly disbelieve any and all of it, basically.


This is a funny sentence ...

Sönam


I'm sure it is. I wrote a nice big chunk of sentences that I assumed would appear funny to get feedback (or not), but I don't need it pointed out that my thinking is not in line with proper thought. Obviously, the standard thinking on ganapuja is that it has value and that the reasons underlying the practice are actual, not purely imaginary.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby JinpaRangdrol » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:38 pm

padma norbu wrote:
JinpaRangdrol wrote:
alpha wrote:Can Ganapuja be performed every day ?

In the booklet on Ganapuja its kind of recommended that one joins the collective practice which is only done on certain days but in the same time it says that one can do it on their own (on those days)but preferably together with other practitioners.....but i cant remember being mentioned whether it can be done daily on your own....


In general, you can do Tsog/Ganapuja as often as you want.


I don't see the point of it, really. I understand the theoretical points, but I thoroughly disbelieve any and all of it, basically. If any sentient beings were at least really enjoying those crumbs at the end, I might think differently, but clearly they're not. There's a whole world of food to be found out there. They don't need small bits of ham, fish and cheetos sprinkled with a drop of wine in an aluminum pie tin set on the stoop.

Do you people really to believe the pretas, etc. come out when they hear the chanting and wait by the door for a plate of crumbs which they absorb invisible essences from? I think it's just more mental offering merit with a physical ritual component and something about going beyond limitations as far as the meat and alcohol are concerned.

When I believed and did ganapuja with pure motivation... I didn't notice anything different about life in general. Apparently, nothing was appeased by the process, least of all my doubting nature.


Tsog is really the essential practice of Vajrayana. It's the transmutation of the poisons into wisdom, and as far as Dzogchen is concerned, it's an excellent practice in One-Taste. It takes you to the moment before judgment, before you can make the distinction between good/bad, sweet/sour, etc. and forces you to simply rest in the simple experience of union with the food. Union with your "external" environment. If you spend all of your time doubting the existence of pretas or rolang, then you'll never get to the essence of the practice. There are so many other vital aspects to Tsog that you're missing, as well. Such as the pristine Tsog, offered to the Three Roots, the confession and reparation of samaya breakages, the liberation of obstructors, the fulfillment of wishes, etc. Also, if done correctly, the animal whose meat is used in a Tsog feast is liberated through its inclusion in the ritual. How could you ever consider Tsog to be useless?
Also, if you have an issue with using meat, it's completely acceptable to perform a Ganachakra without it. HH The Karmapa has banned the use of meat in Tsog at his centers...
Personally, per the request of my Lama, I do the condensed Jigme Lingpa Tsog before every meal. If nothing else, it forces me to attempt to take that first bite in an experience of one-taste. I no longer eat meat, but when I did, I would make the liberation of the animal I'm eating one of my primary priorities, as well.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby padma norbu » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:43 pm

JinpaRangdrol wrote:If you spend all of your time doubting the existence of pretas or rolang, then you'll never get to the essence of the practice.
I didn't spend all my time doing that. Maybe you overlooked where I wrote that I believed and did it faithfully.
JinpaRangdrol wrote:There are so many other vital aspects to Tsog that you're missing, as well. Such as the pristine Tsog, offered to the Three Roots, the confession and reparation of samaya breakages, the liberation of obstructors, the fulfillment of wishes, etc.
Not really, I just didn't mention it.
JinpaRangdrol wrote:Also, if done correctly, the animal whose meat is used in a Tsog feast is liberated through its inclusion in the ritual. How could you ever consider Tsog to be useless?
Uh, because I don't believe that is possible. Namdrol once said he's a vegetarian now EXCEPT for not refusing such offerings because he didn't quite think he had that ability himself, but he would never refuse ritual substances.
JinpaRangdrol wrote:Also, if you have an issue with using meat, it's completely acceptable to perform a Ganachakra without it. HH The Karmapa has banned the use of meat in Tsog at his centers...
Personally, per the request of my Lama, I do the condensed Jigme Lingpa Tsog before every meal. If nothing else, it forces me to attempt to take that first bite in an experience of one-taste. I no longer eat meat, but when I did, I would make the liberation of the animal I'm eating one of my primary priorities, as well.
JR
I wouldn't mind eating meat if I thought it actually served a purpose for me. I got nothing out of ganapuja as far as I could tell, so I stopped.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby JinpaRangdrol » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:55 pm

padma norbu wrote:
JinpaRangdrol wrote:If you spend all of your time doubting the existence of pretas or rolang, then you'll never get to the essence of the practice.
I didn't spend all my time doing that. Maybe you overlooked where I wrote that I believed and did it faithfully.
JinpaRangdrol wrote:There are so many other vital aspects to Tsog that you're missing, as well. Such as the pristine Tsog, offered to the Three Roots, the confession and reparation of samaya breakages, the liberation of obstructors, the fulfillment of wishes, etc.
Not really, I just didn't mention it.
JinpaRangdrol wrote:Also, if done correctly, the animal whose meat is used in a Tsog feast is liberated through its inclusion in the ritual. How could you ever consider Tsog to be useless?
Uh, because I don't believe that is possible. Namdrol once said he's a vegetarian now EXCEPT for not refusing such offerings because he didn't quite think he had that ability himself, but he would never refuse ritual substances.
JinpaRangdrol wrote:Also, if you have an issue with using meat, it's completely acceptable to perform a Ganachakra without it. HH The Karmapa has banned the use of meat in Tsog at his centers...
Personally, per the request of my Lama, I do the condensed Jigme Lingpa Tsog before every meal. If nothing else, it forces me to attempt to take that first bite in an experience of one-taste. I no longer eat meat, but when I did, I would make the liberation of the animal I'm eating one of my primary priorities, as well.
JR
I wouldn't mind eating meat if I thought it actually served a purpose for me. I got nothing out of ganapuja as far as I could tell, so I stopped.


If it doesn't work for you, fine. Nobody but your Lama can tell you to do a practice... but the benefits are clearly stated, and many have found Tsog to be beneficial, myself included. So I think discouraging somebody from practicing the Dharma, especially a practice that is so standard and vital to Vajrayana, would be dangerously close to committing the root downfall of deterring those with faith. Denying the Ganachakra substances is another root downfall, hence Namdrol's lack of willingness to refuse Tsog meat.

Basically, Alpha, if you choose to believe that Tsog can be of benefit to yourself and all sentient beings, as has been taught and believed since the time of Guru Rinpoche, then it is completely kosher (and even recommended) to do a Ganachakra on a daily basis. Otherwise, you can do it twice a month (on Guru Rinpoche day and Dakini day), or twice a year at the very least.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:55 pm

padma norbu wrote:Uh, because I don't believe that is possible. Namdrol once said he's a vegetarian now EXCEPT for not refusing such offerings because he didn't quite think he had that ability himself, but he would never refuse ritual substances.


Our bodies, essentially, are composed of rtsal which is expressed in our ignorance as the five outer and inner elements.

When pracitioners eat the flesh of those who have been killed (necessarily by someone else, not at our specific encouragement, nor have we seen the animal killed) a postive cause is created for this being. Why? Because a connection is made through the field of rtsal which also includes minds.

Since we don't eat anything but cattle, pigs, goats, sheep, fowl, fish and seafood, these animals are in some sense luckier than others, they are more closely associated with human beings, and more likely to wind up in the diet of practitioners.

It is not a question of ability, it is question of knowledge. When you know how everything is connected through rtsal, then such questions about the mechanisms by which a practitioner consuming the flesh of some unfortunate animal benefits that animal becomes very obvious.

The reason why Ganapujas have a powerful effect is that there is no more power an offering than offering to the Guru. If your ganapuja is just a dry ritual, then of course it will have little benefit.

N
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby padma norbu » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:01 pm

JinpaRangdrol wrote:So I think discouraging somebody from practicing the Dharma, especially a practice that is so standard and vital to Vajrayana, would be dangerously close to committing the root downfall of deterring those with faith. Denying the Ganachakra substances is another root downfall, hence Namdrol's lack of willingness to refuse Tsog meat.


I agree and this is why I previously did not voice any doubts or concerns, but it has gotten to a point that I'm just like "frak it," I need answers and I need to be corrected. Therefore, I express myself in such a way that HOPEFULLY is obvious to everyone concerned that I am not someone who should be looked up to as anyone very knowledgable or whose opinion is all that worthwhile. Maybe I should put that in my signature... I think I will actually and then just make a parenthetical notation after all such statements. Thanks for pointing this out so that I have come up with this solution.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sönam » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:03 pm

Namdrol wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Uh, because I don't believe that is possible. Namdrol once said he's a vegetarian now EXCEPT for not refusing such offerings because he didn't quite think he had that ability himself, but he would never refuse ritual substances.


Our bodies, essentially, are composed of rtsal which is expressed in our ignorance as the five outer and inner elements.

When pracitioners eat the flesh of those who have been killed (necessarily by someone else, not at our specific encouragement, nor have we seen the animal killed) a postive cause is created for this being. Why? Because a connection is made through the field of rtsal which also includes minds.

Since we don't eat anything but cattle, pigs, goats, sheep, fowl, fish and seafood, these animals are in some sense luckier than others, they are more closely associated with human beings, and more likely to wind up in the diet of practitioners.

It is not a question of ability, it is question of knowledge. When you know how everything is connected through rtsal, then such questions about the mechanisms by which a practitioner consuming the flesh of some unfortunate animal benefits that animal becomes very obvious.

The reason why Ganapujas have a powerful effect is that there is no more power an offering than offering to the Guru. If your ganapuja is just a dry ritual, then of course it will have little benefit.

N


Yes but, and that is why have difficulty with that recommandation of Rinpoché, at the same time you are more upstream of the chain, because you are also one of the multiple causes of the violent death of the concerned animal. The only reason would be that being upstream yourself won't change anything ... but that's not a valid objection if you project it, let say, at a political level.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby padma norbu » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:12 pm

Namdrol wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Uh, because I don't believe that is possible. Namdrol once said he's a vegetarian now EXCEPT for not refusing such offerings because he didn't quite think he had that ability himself, but he would never refuse ritual substances.


Our bodies, essentially, are composed of rtsal which is expressed in our ignorance as the five outer and inner elements.

When pracitioners eat the flesh of those who have been killed (necessarily by someone else, not at our specific encouragement, nor have we seen the animal killed) a postive cause is created for this being. Why? Because a connection is made through the field of rtsal which also includes minds.

Since we don't eat anything but cattle, pigs, goats, sheep, fowl, fish and seafood, these animals are in some sense luckier than others, they are more closely associated with human beings, and more likely to wind up in the diet of practitioners.

It is not a question of ability, it is question of knowledge. When you know how everything is connected through rtsal, then such questions about the mechanisms by which a practitioner consuming the flesh of some unfortunate animal benefits that animal becomes very obvious.

The reason why Ganapujas have a powerful effect is that there is no more power an offering than offering to the Guru. If your ganapuja is just a dry ritual, then of course it will have little benefit.

N


Thanks very much for this answer. After your recent posts this past week, it is easier to make sense of it as per rtsal energy and it being not so much just about intent, but about simple facts. I used to get hung up on the idea that I didn't have strong enough intent or was doing it wrong or for some other reason was just screwing it up and wasting my time, basically.

Also, my other problem with the whole concept of "there is no more power an offering than offering to the Guru" is very simple: just what that means exactly is just a jumbled up mess in my brain. Guru is inside me, guru is outside me, guru is Namkhai Norbu, guru is all my teachers unified, guru is Samantabadra, etc. I can't make my mind up what the hell I'm offering to and so what the point is, actually, becomes a vague and confusing mess. I used to bypass all that by "blanking out" and just trying to be mindful of the various aspects of the ganapuja, especially "one taste."

It's always so strange how, in the group setting, everyone seems to rush through the eating/drinking and I'm like, "wait, I'm trying to be mindful of this experience here!" but it's over pretty quickly and then afterward people just start immediately chatting and it's like whatever atmosphere was created has been shattered.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:21 pm

JinpaRangdrol wrote:but then I spent a few years eating meat, constantly justifying it to myself with the same ol' Vajrayana rhetoric of "imbibing poison to transform it."



Nothing to purify, it's all rtsal.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby JinpaRangdrol » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:30 pm

Namdrol wrote:
JinpaRangdrol wrote:but then I spent a few years eating meat, constantly justifying it to myself with the same ol' Vajrayana rhetoric of "imbibing poison to transform it."



it's all rtsal.


Absolutely. But as long as I am accumulating karma in this relative reality, I feel it is my responsibility to refrain from eating meat. Understanding that it's all rTsal makes the Ganachakra experience much more real, but as far as my daily life is concerned, I just feel too much of a kinship with animals to eat them. Hell, Chatral Rinpoche, arguably the greatest living Dzogchenpa, requires his students to commit to vegetarianism. Other huge proponents being HHDL, HH The Karmapa, etc.
I would never condemn a Vajrayana practitioner for eating meat, especially if they treat it as Tsog. But as for me, I'll avoid it.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Mr. G » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:52 pm

    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby catmoon » Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:15 am

I read above that someone is using Cheetos as an offering. I have done this myself, having placed some before the Buddha at our meditation class. This caused the assistant to investigate, and a conversation something like this ensued...


"What's this?"
"It's an offering to the Buddha."
"You are offering the Buddha Cheetos?"
"Yup."
"You shouldn't offer junk food to a Buddha."
"It's ok. These are Bodhicheetos."
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:17 am

catmoon wrote:I read above that someone is using Cheetos as an offering. I have done this myself, having placed some before the Buddha at our meditation class. This caused the assistant to investigate, and a conversation something like this ensued...


"What's this?"
"It's an offering to the Buddha."
"You are offering the Buddha Cheetos?"
"Yup."
"You shouldn't offer junk food to a Buddha."
"It's ok. These are Bodhicheetos."

:lol:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sönam » Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:54 am

padma norbu wrote:
Sönam wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
I don't see the point of it, really. I understand the theoretical points, but I thoroughly disbelieve any and all of it, basically.


This is a funny sentence ...

Sönam


I'm sure it is. I wrote a nice big chunk of sentences that I assumed would appear funny to get feedback (or not), but I don't need it pointed out that my thinking is not in line with proper thought. Obviously, the standard thinking on ganapuja is that it has value and that the reasons underlying the practice are actual, not purely imaginary.


Far away from me to point anything about your thinking but ... if you don't see, how can you thoroughly disbelieve any and all?

Sönam
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:20 pm

padma norbu wrote:
Also, my other problem with the whole concept of "there is no more power an offering than offering to the Guru" is very simple: just what that means exactly is just a jumbled up mess in my brain.



There are four gurus: the guru who gives you introduction is the outer guru; the path practiced is the inner guru; the result realized is the secret guru; rigpa is the ultimate guru;

But without the first, the rest will not happen.

N
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby padma norbu » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:57 pm

Sönam wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
I don't see the point of it, really. I understand the theoretical points, but I thoroughly disbelieve any and all of it, basically.


Far away from me to point anything about your thinking but ... if you don't see, how can you thoroughly disbelieve any and all?

Sönam


Well, I may have moved past this obstacle now, as you can see my reply to Namdrol below. But, what I attempted to say (poorly) was that I understood the theoretical points of ganapuja, but since I thoroughly disbelieved the practice is really accomplishing its intents, I didn't see the point in doing it. I can't make myself believe something. It would be like trying to perform a love spell by Silver Ravenwolf or attending Catholic mass.

It's a real problem. How to believe? Well, we must become convinced, actually, somehow.

Learning what I have this past week has gone a long way to convincing me that ganapuja really does accomplish its intents and is not purely an imaginary merit-generating exercise working strictly with one's personal psychology. It's all related, though; guru yoga, ganapuja, whatever you put in front of me, basically— there was some missing pieces I needed to collect. I now have a deeper understanding of some things I did know, but didn't really have a way to connect the dots from big picture ideas to little picture (me). I know this is all conceptual baggage, but believe is important for me and I can't simply shake off doubts because someone tells me to "not remain in doubt" or "drop conceptual clinging." I've been trying that; the doubts resurface because my mind wants clarification about what its doing. It doesn't matter that I've received transmission multiple times or whether or not I've had a taste of rigpa.

Namdrol wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
Also, my other problem with the whole concept of "there is no more power an offering than offering to the Guru" is very simple: just what that means exactly is just a jumbled up mess in my brain.



There are four gurus: the guru who gives you introduction is the outer guru; the path practiced is the inner guru; the result realized is the secret guru; rigpa is the ultimate guru;

But without the first, the rest will not happen.

N


Actually, before I just read this response, I spent a lot of time pondering what you have written in the past week on various threads. I collected it all in a text file in proper sequence for my brain to process if it becomes abstract and confusing again, interspersed with some helpful definitions from RigpaWiki and put in big giant words at the top: DZOGCHEN EXPLAINED.

You are really a very good teacher, Namdrol. If you were doing retreats or teaching classes, I would certainly like to be there. The text file printout is only about 7 pages and it covers pretty much every aspect of Dzogchen that was still vague to me as far as how this fits in with other Buddhist ideas and methods.

Simply thinking about energy for a long time, as you explained it in the "Cosmogeny" and "individual" threads while simultaneously reading the Dalai Lama's "Universe In A Single Atom" put everything in order for me pretty well and I really don't feel so conflicted anymore about anything[ I've felt conflicted about on and off for years. The understanding of energy (as well as the basis) was really important detail for me. And I have read about these ideas and heard about them in Namkhai Norbu's writing and lectures, but I think the Q&A format really worked for me, even though it was mostly everyone else asking the questions. I wouldn't have known the right questions to ask, anyway.

Understanding this, it is far more acceptable to realize and believe that beyond this basic knowledge of how things are, there is a gigantic scope of detail it is impossible to know (basically all the things the Buddha kept a silent tongue about), but so long as we really understand these basic concepts of energy and awareness, that's all we really need to know in order to understand how to proceed or to actually have faith based on something reasonable.

Thanks for taking the time to explain these things. That little printout is going to help me a lot in the future, I think, whenever doubt might rear it's head again. I suppose I could always get frustrated again and really reject everything now that I have a better understanding, but here's to hoping that doesn't happen...
:cheers:
...because that would probably really be the end for me.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:15 pm

padma norbu wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to explain these things.



I am glad you have found some benefit in my posts.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby asunthatneversets » Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:57 pm

Namdrol wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
Also, my other problem with the whole concept of "there is no more power an offering than offering to the Guru" is very simple: just what that means exactly is just a jumbled up mess in my brain.



There are four gurus: the guru who gives you introduction is the outer guru; the path practiced is the inner guru; the result realized is the secret guru; rigpa is the ultimate guru;

But without the first, the rest will not happen.

N


Is there also such thing as a vajra guru? Who takes it upon themselves to have sole responsibility of their student's realization? I heard this somewhere.

Besides Padmasambhava of course, I just mean the term used in that other way as well.
Last edited by asunthatneversets on Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Josef » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:07 am

Good opportunity for collective practice from a distance.

12 Hours Nagon with Rinpoche at Tashigar Sur


The Nagon will be dedicated to all people that suffer the
effects of totalitarian governments.

Will start at 18:30 pm till 6:30 am (argentinian time).

We´ll finish with a Simple Ganapuja
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