Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Paul » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:53 pm

alpha wrote:Or another example is Kumbaka....I honestly do not understand how you do it...


You can easily learn it from a senior student in the DC. It's not complicated, but it best passed on in person.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:55 pm

My post got deleted when I asked about this. Not that that was wrong to delete my post, as it is a restricted book.

Nonetheless there are public books that explain this and similar types of Kumbhaka, like Bliss of Inner Fire by Lama Yeshe, The Stages of A-Khrid Meditation, Mind in Comfort and Ease by the Dala Lama, and one or two Treasury of Knowledge books by Jamgon Kongtrul.

It seems that bringing the upper Prana down is achieved simply by breathing down into the belly deeply, and that bring the lower Prana up to meet the upper Prana in the navel is achieved by contracting the sphincter and the lower abdomen a bit.

Someone correct me on this if I'm mistaken.
Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby mint » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:59 pm

Paul wrote:
alpha wrote:Or another example is Kumbaka....I honestly do not understand how you do it...


You can easily learn it from a senior student in the DC. It's not complicated, but it best passed on in person.


I'm screwed.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:00 pm

Never heard of e-mail, mint? ;)
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Mr. G » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:03 pm

I think learning Kumbhaka correctly by correspondence would be very tough. I think learning it in person is the way to go.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:05 pm

alpha wrote:...
So the question is how one studies the P.V for the SMS when the information given is incomplete...?

It isn't incomplete, it's just not easy for most of us to understand it from the root text alone. That's why there are SMS teachers giving courses on various topics from it. I think there should be some CDs from these courses available. Also you can find some more explanation in other books.

Yeeeah.....How do you practice Kumbaka from a book :thinking: ??????

You don't. It's something very specific and in general it should be learnt through practice of Yantra Yoga. But there is a kind of short cut too - Fabio Andrico's kumbhaka course. IMO most people won't be able to learn it properly from someone just explaining how to do it. And this certainly isn't something to play around with carelessly.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:09 pm

Yes kumbhaka is secret so we can't say any more about it and also it can't be learnt through email. Sorry. If you don't practice Yantra I really recommend Fabio's course (and if you do, too).
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby dzoki » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:11 pm

alpha wrote:When it comes to doing the SMS the explanation of various practices contained in Precious Vase one has to do is very sparse and incomplete.

Ex. In the investigation on" How one is beguiled by Diverse secondary causes" there is only one paragraph of 6 or 7 lines .That's it...There is no more of how you should investigate and how you formulate in your head this investigation....
Or another example is Kumbaka....I honestly do not understand how you do it...

And these practices are among many others who seem vague and incomplete.

So the question is how one studies the P.V for the SMS when the information given is incomplete...?

Yeeeah.....How do you practice Kumbaka from a book :thinking: ??????


Dear Alpha,

if you find the explanations in Precious Vase incoplete or vague, please do attend a course on Santi Maha Sangha Base with one of the S.M.S instructors. I am sure your local dzogchen community organizes such courses from time to time. I guess one fo the reasons the training is called Santi Maha Sangha (that is Dzogchen Sangha/ Dzogchen community), is that Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche wants that this training takes place within the framework of the community, which means together woth other practitioners. For example in my country we organize regular study gruops, where students who already have passed some of the training levels help the beginners to understand the difficult points and do the practices together, also the instructors for the S.M.S are invited on regular basis to lead courses, finally rinpoche himself gives the teaching on P.V. at least once a year, these are always webcasted. Plus you can always write an e-mail to Jim Valby and other instructors if you need a clarification.
Other than that I would recommend you to study also other basic Dharma texts, such as Jewel Ornament of Liberation or Words of My Perfect Teacher.
The worst thing is just to remain passive and blame the book for our own lack of understanding of it.

All the best

Dzoki
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby alpha » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:16 pm

The ideea i wanted to emphasize was purely that only reading the P.V is not enough in order to do the required practices listed at the end of the book.
One needs additional information and the indispensable face to face instruction from someone who has been through this kind of training before.

Otherwise this kind of training is impossible on your own and solely by following the information given in P.V won't get you very far and obviously wont be enough to take the Base exam.

that is the gist of it.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:22 pm

alpha wrote:The ideea i wanted to emphasize was purely that only reading the P.V is not enough in order to do the required practices listed at the end of the book.
One needs additional information and the indispensable face to face instruction from someone who has been through this kind of training before.

Otherwise this kind of training is impossible on your own and solely by following the information given in P.V won't get you very far and obviously wont be enough to take the Base exam.

that is the gist of it.

:shrug:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby alpha » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:27 pm

dzoki wrote:
alpha wrote:When it comes to doing the SMS the explanation of various practices contained in Precious Vase one has to do is very sparse and incomplete.

Ex. In the investigation on" How one is beguiled by Diverse secondary causes" there is only one paragraph of 6 or 7 lines .That's it...There is no more of how you should investigate and how you formulate in your head this investigation....
Or another example is Kumbaka....I honestly do not understand how you do it...

And these practices are among many others who seem vague and incomplete.

So the question is how one studies the P.V for the SMS when the information given is incomplete...?

Yeeeah.....How do you practice Kumbaka from a book :thinking: ??????


Dear Alpha,

if you find the explanations in Precious Vase incoplete or vague, please do attend a course on Santi Maha Sangha Base with one of the S.M.S instructors. I am sure your local dzogchen community organizes such courses from time to time. I guess one fo the reasons the training is called Santi Maha Sangha (that is Dzogchen Sangha/ Dzogchen community), is that Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche wants that this training takes place within the framework of the community, which means together woth other practitioners. For example in my country we organize regular study gruops, where students who already have passed some of the training levels help the beginners to understand the difficult points and do the practices together, also the instructors for the S.M.S are invited on regular basis to lead courses, finally rinpoche himself gives the teaching on P.V. at least once a year, these are always webcasted. Plus you can always write an e-mail to Jim Valby and other instructors if you need a clarification.
Other than that I would recommend you to study also other basic Dharma texts, such as Jewel Ornament of Liberation or Words of My Perfect Teacher.
The worst thing is just to remain passive and blame the book for our own lack of understanding of it.

All the best

Dzoki


I understand your point and that is how i want to do it.By joining a study group.
Is just that i have been very unsuccessful so far.
I wrote like 3 weeks ago to the one who organizes the monthly SMS group meetings in London area and i requested how to go about joining their group and i am yet to receive i reply.
I am also waiting for my login details for over 3 months...


So as you can see everything is very muddy and slow here...and nobody is answering...
Is probably that they are doing their christmas shopping...or everybody's left....because of the crisis :twothumbsup:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:33 pm

alpha wrote:The ideea i wanted to emphasize was purely that only reading the P.V is not enough in order to do the required practices listed at the end of the book.
One needs additional information and the indispensable face to face instruction from someone who has been through this kind of training before.

Otherwise this kind of training is impossible on your own and solely by following the information given in P.V won't get you very far and obviously wont be enough to take the Base exam.


Oh come on, it's really not THAT bad! :-) I know people who started exactly like that - reading the Vase and doing the practices as best as they could with very little, if any, guidance from other, older practitioners. To some extent it's a question of one's motivation, attitude, devotion, etc., etc..
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby alwayson » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:42 pm

kumbhaka simply means holding your breath

This is widely published in unrestricted books off of Amazon. It ain't a secret.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby mint » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:43 pm

Yay, more books.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:44 pm

That's why I said:



Lhug-Pa wrote:My post got deleted when I asked about this. Not that that was wrong to delete my post, as it is a restricted book.

Nonetheless there are public books that explain this and similar types of Kumbhaka, like Bliss of Inner Fire by Lama Yeshe, The Stages of A-Khrid Meditation, Mind in Comfort and Ease by the Dala Lama, and one or two Treasury of Knowledge books by Jamgon Kongtrul.

It seems that bringing the upper Prana down is achieved simply by breathing down into the belly deeply, and that bring the lower Prana up to meet the upper Prana in the navel is achieved by contracting the sphincter and the lower abdomen a bit.

Someone correct me on this if I'm mistaken.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby alwayson » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:46 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:That's why I said:



Lhug-Pa wrote:My post got deleted when I asked about this. Not that that was wrong to delete my post, as it is a restricted book.

Nonetheless there are public books that explain this and similar types of Kumbhaka, like Bliss of Inner Fire by Lama Yeshe, The Stages of A-Khrid Meditation, Mind in Comfort and Ease by the Dala Lama, and one or two Treasury of Knowledge books by Jamgon Kongtrul.

It seems that bringing the upper Prana down is achieved simply by breathing down into the belly deeply, and that bring the lower Prana up to meet the upper Prana in the navel is achieved by contracting the sphincter and the lower abdomen a bit.

Someone correct me on this if I'm mistaken.



This is wrong.

Kumbhaka / vase breath simply means holding your breath, which you don't mention at all.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Mr. G » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:48 pm

alwayson wrote:kumbhaka simply means holding your breath

This is widely published in unrestricted books off of Amazon. It ain't a secret.


It's more than holding one's breath.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby alwayson » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:49 pm

Mr. G wrote:
It's more than holding one's breath.



I think you mean that Kumbhaka is an essential part of more complex practices like trul khor, tummo etc.
Last edited by alwayson on Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:49 pm

alwayson wrote:kumbhaka simply means holding your breath

No it doesn't.

This is widely published in unrestricted books off of Amazon. It ain't a secret.

Yes it is.

Just because you can read some things in public books doesn't mean that practitioners can speak about them publicly. Someone (perhaps back on E-Sangha) made an example that if your teacher tells you to keep secret that the sun rises every morning then you don't tell that to anyone or something in that sense.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby alwayson » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:52 pm

Pero wrote:Just because you can read some things in public books doesn't mean that practitioners can speak about them publicly. Someone (perhaps back on E-Sangha) made an example that if your teacher tells you to keep secret that the sun rises every morning then you don't tell that to anyone or something in that sense.


My understanding is that the only secrets you need to keep are the ones that are not public.

I believe Namdrol said this, but I could be wrong.
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