lacking the capacity

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Re: lacking the capacity

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 10, 2011 6:16 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:My question was better said, which Buddhist elements are inside Dzogchen philiosophy or which are in a certain way common. One suggestion would be Sugatagarbha?



Emptiness, dependent origination, karma, rebirth, five elements, eight consciousnesses, five wisdoms, five aggregates, etc.


Garab Dorje is an emanation of Shakyamuni Buddha.


This is new to me. Is this somewhere in a Dzogchen teaching from Prahevajra mentioned, or somewhere else in Garab Dorjes commentaries?


Well, Shakyamuni Buddha is an emanation of Vajrasattva. Garab Dorje is an emanation of Varjasattva. Shakyamuni predicted Garab Dorje. This is detailed well in the lineage historys in Dzogchen Nyinthig.

[color=#0080FF]Yes i know that Kuntu Zangpo is here the primordial source and that would not be Buddha Shakyamuni[./color]


Samantabhadra is the dharmakāya of all Buddhas.

Anyway, we don't have to get too linear about all of this.
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Re: lacking the capacity

Postby kalden yungdrung » Tue May 10, 2011 6:27 pm

Samantabhadra, Vajrasattva, etc., Garab Dorje, Manjshruimitra, etc.
Yes i know that Kuntu Zangpo is here the primordial source and that would not be Buddha Shakyamuni[./color][/quote

Samantabhadra is the dharmakāya of all Buddhas.

Anyway, we don't have to get too linear about all of this.


[color=#0080FF]Tashi delek Namdrol, :)

Thanks for the reply.

Well i can fully agree that Kuntu Zangpo would be here the source of the Dzogchen cycle of teachings and i guess that is common in as well Bon as well Nyingma.
Does Nyingma has mind to mind teachings? I guess yes.... Bon has such Dzochen teachings, the mind to mind teachings
By the way Kagyu knows also a mind to mind teaching, when i did understood that well. In this case Dharmakya Dorje Chang to Tilopa......

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KY
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Re: lacking the capacity

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 10, 2011 6:35 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Well i can fully agree that Kuntu Zangpo would be here the source of the Dzogchen cycle of teachings and i guess that is common in as well Bon as well Nyingma.


Actually, Samantabhadra is the ultimate source of all Dharma teachings.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: lacking the capacity

Postby Sönam » Wed May 11, 2011 4:10 pm

Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Well i can fully agree that Kuntu Zangpo would be here the source of the Dzogchen cycle of teachings and i guess that is common in as well Bon as well Nyingma.


Actually, Samantabhadra is the ultimate source of all Dharma teachings.


It seems evident ... othetwise many Dzogchen teachings would have no sense (starting with Kunjed Gyalpo) ?

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Re: lacking the capacity

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed May 11, 2011 10:49 pm

Tashi delek, :)

So the end-conclusion could be that Samantabadhra = Kuntu Zangpo.
But in Bon Dzogchen is no Samantabadhra known.

Could it be that Samantabadhra does belong to the Indian Dzogchen cycle and Kuntu Zangpo to the Tibetan Dzogchen cycle?

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: lacking the capacity

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 11, 2011 10:55 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek, :)

So the endconclusion could be that Samantabadhra = Kuntu Zangpo.
But in Bon Dzogchen is no Samantabadhra known.

Could it be that Samantabadhra does belong to the Indian Dzogchen cycle and Kuntu Zangpo to the Tibetan Dzogchen cycle?

Best wishes
KY



Samanta = kun tu
bhadra = bzang po
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: lacking the capacity

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed May 11, 2011 11:04 pm

Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek, :)

So the endconclusion could be that Samantabadhra = Kuntu Zangpo.
But in Bon Dzogchen is no Samantabadhra known.

Could it be that Samantabadhra does belong to the Indian Dzogchen cycle and Kuntu Zangpo to the Tibetan Dzogchen cycle?

Best wishes
KY



Samanta = kun tu
bhadra = bzang po



Tashi delek Namdrol, :)

Thanks for the reply.

Translation is right.

But the point was in case of an Indian Dzogchen cycle Samantabhadra.

Further would be Samantabhadra a Sanskrit name used in Swat / Uddiyana, i do suppose so.
Just because Bon Dzogchen does not know a Sanskrit name for Kuntu Zangpo, that would not mean we speak here about two different entities.....
But i see here two different lineages, namely one from Tibet and one from India.

Even in our Bon Indian dzogchen cycle we know only the name Kuntu Zangpo.
That counts also maybe for Bon Sarma, but here i am not so very sure because Guru Rinpoche is here venerated.....

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: lacking the capacity

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Thu May 12, 2011 10:30 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Just because Bon Dzogchen does not know a Sanskrit name for Kuntu Zangpo, that would not mean we speak here about two different entities.....


KY,

That was exactly Namdrol's point. The two names refer to the exact same Buddha, and generally speaking, whether Tibetans are Bonpo OR Buddhist, they know him as "Kuntu Zangpo," rather than Samantabhadra.
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Re: lacking the capacity

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri May 13, 2011 3:23 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Just because Bon Dzogchen does not know a Sanskrit name for Kuntu Zangpo, that would not mean we speak here about two different entities.....


KY,

That was exactly Namdrol's point. The two names refer to the exact same Buddha, and generally speaking, whether Tibetans are Bonpo OR Buddhist, they know him as "Kuntu Zangpo," rather than Samantabhadra.


Tashi delek Pema Rigdzin, :)

Thanks for your post.

- Who are meant with"they"?
- Why do you think that "they" know him as "Kuntu Zangpo"rather than Samantabadhra?


Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: lacking the capacity

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 13, 2011 4:11 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:- Who are meant with"they"?


All Tibetans.

- Why do you think that "they" know him as "Kuntu Zangpo"rather than Samantabadhra?


Because they are Tibetans.

It is only in the West that Kun tu zang po is more commonly known as Samantabhadra.
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: lacking the capacity

Postby narraboth » Fri May 13, 2011 5:12 pm

rai wrote:when one knows that there is time to go back to more gradual path? if few years passed and there is no real recognition, would it be wise to consider oneself as not having high capacity and try to find more gradual teacher? I remember someone was writing on e-sangha that some people stick with DC for too long without any progress. PS it is not so easy to check with the teacher as there are thousand of students.

Thank you!


I guess you will prove by yourself in the end. if you are not able to realise dzogchen correctly, due to different reasons, in sum due to karma, you are not THAT capable. But at least you met dzogchen teaching. I remember dzogchen tantra says anyone we met dzogchen teaching, even just listened to it a bit, he or she will become capable in a certain time and liberated.

there's also a saying: if you received dzogchen empowerment and teaching, even you can not realise and practice it, as long as you keep your samaya unbroken, you will meet dzogchen again before 25 years old in your next life and you will be liberated at that life. Kyabje Khen. Jigmed Phuntsog made a comment on this, says if you received dzogchen before 25 years old of your current life, it's very possible that you are the lucky person described in the text (so you should be capable).

anyway the idea is, no matter what's your capacity this life, it's very auspicious to meet dzogchen teaching and one should appreciate and rejoice.
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Re: lacking the capacity

Postby Pero » Sat May 14, 2011 10:55 am

narraboth wrote:there's also a saying: if you received dzogchen empowerment and teaching, even you can not realise and practice it, as long as you keep your samaya unbroken, you will meet dzogchen again before 25 years old in your next life and you will be liberated at that life. Kyabje Khen. Jigmed Phuntsog made a comment on this, says if you received dzogchen before 25 years old of your current life, it's very possible that you are the lucky person described in the text (so you should be capable).


You told me something like this once on E-Sangha. But didn't you say something about having to get some realization before the age of 25 (or something like that)?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: lacking the capacity

Postby narraboth » Tue May 17, 2011 4:33 pm

Pero wrote:You told me something like this once on E-Sangha. But didn't you say something about having to get some realization before the age of 25 (or something like that)?


I don't remember... esangha now sounds like some old classmates :P
anyway, what it was said is:
if you have received dzogchen empowerment and teaching, there are three kinds of capacities:

If one doesn't break samaya,
the suprior one attain enlightenment in that life
the middle one would be liberated at death or bardo
the lower one will obtain human body again and meet dzogchen teaching again between 15 to 25 years old, he or she should be liberated at that life.

it sounds like in the second life lower capacity people would be upgraded to suprior or middle :)
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Re: lacking the capacity

Postby Pero » Tue May 17, 2011 5:00 pm

narraboth wrote:
Pero wrote:You told me something like this once on E-Sangha. But didn't you say something about having to get some realization before the age of 25 (or something like that)?


I don't remember... esangha now sounds like some old classmates :P

:rolling:

If one doesn't break samaya,
the suprior one attain enlightenment in that life
the middle one would be liberated at death or bardoliberated
the lower one will obtain human body again and meet dzogchen teaching again between 15 to 25 years old, he or she should be liberated at that life.

That's a relief, because I'm nearing 25 and I doubt I can get in less than a year haha.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: lacking the capacity

Postby tamdrin » Tue May 17, 2011 5:47 pm

so if one is destined for liberation what exactly happens to us b/c we are not lower vehicle followers who believe nirvana is non-existesnce..our mind is unborn and thus can never die. right. It seems to me that there are lots of things to be liberated from before the BIG LIBERATION comes.. like having a boss who is an asshole or something.
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Re: lacking the capacity

Postby alpha » Tue May 17, 2011 6:09 pm

time is another factor...

i wonder if i still have time left to achieve the rainbow body in this lifetime given that i am 37 already...considering that i have received everything one needs to get there..

i know about a rinpoche -shardza rinpoche -who decided relatively late that he had enough of samsara and went into retreat when he was 34 or 35 and he still achieved rainbow body...
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Re: lacking the capacity

Postby gnegirl » Tue May 17, 2011 6:25 pm

alpha wrote:time is another factor...

i wonder if i still have time left to achieve the rainbow body in this lifetime given that i am 37 already...considering that i have received everything one needs to get there..

i know about a rinpoche -shardza rinpoche -who decided relatively late that he had enough of samsara and went into retreat when he was 34 or 35 and he still achieved rainbow body...


I suppose you never know until you try....
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: lacking the capacity

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 17, 2011 6:25 pm

alpha wrote:time is another factor...

i wonder if i still have time left to achieve the rainbow body in this lifetime given that i am 37 already...considering that i have received everything one needs to get there..

i know about a rinpoche -shardza rinpoche -who decided relatively late that he had enough of samsara and went into retreat when he was 34 or 35 and he still achieved rainbow body...



Generally speaking, yes. You have time. If you have all the instructions, it is purely based on your diligence, and nothing else.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: lacking the capacity

Postby username » Tue May 17, 2011 7:09 pm

This morning IIRC ChNNR said briefly there are 4 stages (held up 4 fingers & counted) in capacity. First is having circumstances to have Dzogchen teachings. Second is your own diligence level. Third is your ability of the amount of keeping presence or being non-distracted. Fourth, gist of it as can't remember the exact few words, how often and how deeply you think about, contemplate or actually practice presence or instant presence itself.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: lacking the capacity

Postby Sönam » Tue May 17, 2011 9:00 pm

Pero wrote:
narraboth wrote:the lower one will obtain human body again and meet dzogchen teaching again between 15 to 25 years old, he or she should be liberated at that life.

That's a relief, because I'm nearing 25 and I doubt I can get in less than a year haha.


If you doubt you sure won't ...

:rules: :jumping:
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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