Pointing out instructions

[username]

Thanks gnegirl but your visual pointing out of him is superior in class to his written (oral) I did. Also if as believed Dudjom Rinpoche in previous lives was both Saraha and Ling Je Repa then Zhigpo Dudtsi only knew of one entity-basis who got it in that special way.

[adinatha]

Also Direct Transmission is often emphasized to be different in nature to blessings' mechanisms or anything else since this is a common error by those who are complete rookies to Dzogchen.

Pish Posh...

Okay so let's get down to the nitty gritty. What is a blessing? Energy. What is Rigpa? Essence, nature and energy. How do you get the blessing? By seeing the essense. That's the nature of seeing clearly. If you think the energy is not connect with rigpa, perhaps you are the Dzogchen rookie you are talking about.

You can use words like blessing and Direct Transmission in one conceptual tradition like Dzogchen and claim that the way those words are used in another tradition shows the other tradition doesn't know the meaning of the words, but nothing can change the nature of mind, and we all have it. So what rookie mahamudra people know so-called Dzgochen experts don't know and vice versa. Using jargon isn't knowledge.

Blessing is nonconceptual. I'm disappointed you don't see that.

Blessings' mechanisms shmechanisms.

[username]

Glad you concede all my other points you didn't quote. If you got it all and even amazingly in the mind to mind transmission mode, why don't you start giving Direct Transmissions yourself?

[adinatha]

The shazam method in the mahamudra tradition is explained in the Eighth Tai Situpa's commentary on the 3rd Karmapa's Aspiration Prayer of Mahamudra.

The descent of the wisdom vajra empowerment originally comes from the Mahāmudra chapter of the Jñan̄asiddhi written by Indrabhuti. Tai Situ's presentation is completely based on this. In fact, the whole Kagyu essence Mahamudra tradition uses this text to justify its approach.

However, the Jñan̄asiddhi still presents a gradual path. In the very next chapter after the Mahāmudra chapter in this text, Indrabhuti states:

"One whose yoga engages the mind
through the application
of gradual training becomes a buddha,
there is no other way to accomplish Buddhahood."

So, it is pretty clear that Mahāmudra in general is considered a gradual path.

Okay you are mixing up apples and oranges, pointing out and path. Pointing out is just recognition. You still have to remain in that until it fully develops. That is true for Dzogchen too. The question is whether Mahamudra like Dzogchen has a shazam of pointing out leading only to recognition and contemplation. No one gets a direct intro in either of these lineages and blink, omniscient.

However, in regards to so called Cigcarwas, those whose awakening is sudden, merely through an introduction -- an early Nyingma master of the twelfth century, Zhigpo Dudtsi remarked, "Apart from Saraha in India, and Lingje Repa (founder of Drugpa Kagyu), I have never heard of any other cigcarwas. Maybe they exist, but I have never met one."

A gradual path to buddhahood is different than a sudden awakening to rigpa's nature. Besides, Garchen Rinpoche has mentioned he's met Cigcarwas and gave them pointing out instructions without foundation. So what someone said a long time ago may not be appropriate to what is happening on the ground today.

The REAL Atiyoga is beyond all this, and and is like being stricken by a sudden fever out of nowhere. The primordial unity and presence of all buddhas qualities is nothing anyone can point out. You get it when you get it and then before and after have no meaning.

[adinatha]

Glad you concede all my other points you didn't quote.

The old "admission by silence" huh? What are you a lawyer?

If you got it all and even amazingly in the mind to mind transmission mode, why don't you start giving Direct Transmissions yourself?

Maybe if you "double dog dare me."

[Malcolm]

Okay you are mixing up apples and oranges, pointing out and path. Pointing out is just recognition. You still have to remain in that until it fully develops. That is true for Dzogchen too. The question is whether Mahamudra like Dzogchen has a shazam of pointing out leading only to recognition and contemplation. No one gets a direct intro in either of these lineages and blink, omniscient.

There is nothing to develop in Dzogchen.

[username]

If someone who doesn't know the basics and says rigpa is transferred by a master charging the local space with Shaktipat energy and I got it in mind to mind transmission and constantly tries to drum up schisms between Dzogchenpas and Chagchenpas or Kagyus and Nyingmas, then what can I say?

[adinatha]

Okay you are mixing up apples and oranges, pointing out and path. Pointing out is just recognition. You still have to remain in that until it fully develops. That is true for Dzogchen too. The question is whether Mahamudra like Dzogchen has a shazam of pointing out leading only to recognition and contemplation. No one gets a direct intro in either of these lineages and blink, omniscient.

There is nothing to develop in Dzogchen.

The Direct Perception of Dharmata, the Increase of Experience, Experience Reaching Fullness...

No? Anyone?...

Development is just a word. You can use this word referring to the way it is used somewhere else according to volitional sadhana and say that in this way here is no development because there is no volitional sadhana, but if you use this word in another instance as in here referring to something else, then there most certainly is development.

In either Dzogchen or Mahamudra exhaustion into dharmata is the innate. There are no words in that "experience." There I just said it.

[Malcolm]

=

then there most certainly is development.

Whatever you want to believe.

[adinatha]

=

then there most certainly is development.

Whatever you want to believe.

Belief falief.

[gnegirl]

Belief falief.

[adinatha]

[rai]

if someone participated in few pointing out transmissions (for general public) but never really get it what is the relationship with the teacher then? is it his root guru anyway?

Every time one receives a direct introduction or a pointing out by a true lineage master it affects one deeply and works in various ways even if not noticed. But often it does not succeed. When it does succeed to introduce one to her real nature of mind then that it is one's root guru. Second point is after receiving a direct introduction or a pointing out and most importantly receiving the lineage's transmission thus,the practitioner can continually try to discover her real nature by herself using various exercises based on emptiness or clarity and sometimes either or both combined with bliss to discover the underlying instant presence. Good books on Dzogchen for these methods and clarifications can be Longchenpa's scholarly "A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission" or more effective in plain language for most are Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche's two smaller volumes of "As It Is" or Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's regular open webcasts. The small book "You are the Eyes of the World" doesn't hurt.On Mahamudra the small classic manual "Clarifying the Natural State" by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal is excellent if read slowly and often and trying to think about the answers to questions for a while before rushing ahead to read them in the next paragraph. Best is to try to watch the mind in daily life at ease. For meditation there are numerous ways, one possible way is explained well here:
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=3941

Can one have more then one root guru?

[Josef]

Can one have more then one root guru?

Yes.

[rai]

Can one have more then one root guru?

Yes.

does it mean that one can recognize the Rigpa many times on different ocassions with different Gurus and all of them are his root Gurus?

[Josef]

Can one have more then one root guru?

Yes.

does it mean that one can recognize the Rigpa many times on different ocassions with different Gurus and all of them are his root Gurus?

Its not really a plurality.
Rigpa is rigpa is rigpa.
I dont really think that it will make much difference after you have had an authentic experience a couple of times.
You get it and you work with it. Its not like you get introduction, forget about it, get introduction again, forget about it, and so on.
You maintain the continuity of the transmission through applying what you have learned and experienced.
You can have more than one root guru but its unlikely that you would have more than a few and probably not very useful either.

[mindyourmind]

Heres a question...
I have read a little about Dzogchen. Only had one teaching on it from a qualified Lama, definitely not an expert though. What is the difference (if any) between pointing out instructions and what is called the "Mind to Mind transmission" found in Chan? Would be nice to get some answers from those who are knowledgeable in both traditions.

The basic difference is as follows. With Dzogchen, right in the very beginning your primordial state is pointed out to you with words, symbols and personal experience. You then work with this, integrating into this knowledge.

In Zen, you practice for many years, discover your real nature, awaken, and then your awakening is signed off on by an awakened master, someone who is capable of recognizing the experience you have had and verifying it for you.

So, completely different.

I should clarify that there are lots of different traditions of "pointing out". And the way "pointing out" is done in Dzogchen is very different than the way it is done in Mahāmudrā -- the latter is far more gradual, in general.

You tryin ta picka fight cowboy?

This is generally correct, because the typical Mahamudra pointing out instruction is long transmission that last several months and Dzogchen has the famous single word pointing out. HOWEVER! In the Kagyu tradition of essence mahamudra there are pointing out instructions that are just a few words or no words using a demonstration. And there is in both traditions the literal mind-mind transmission where the master mixes his mind with space and you get energy, similar to shaktipat, except here, because the realization is that energy is emptiness, the shakti and the pat are totally different and in the manner of the buddha's wisdom. The shazam method in the mahamudra tradition is explained in the Eighth Tai Situpa's commentary on the 3rd Karmapa's Aspiration Prayer of Mahamudra.

If the Mahamudra POI is a process that takes months, how is Mahamudra supposed to be so well suited for Western students?

[Malcolm]

If the Mahamudra POI is a process that takes months, how is Mahamudra supposed to be so well suited for Western students?

Kagyu Mahamudra is gradual and experiential, so some people think it is a more suitable instruction for acquainting people with the nature of the mind.

Dzogchen introduction is also experiential, but it really depends on the student's acumen to get it since it is not as gradual and step by step.



N

[Clarence]

If the Mahamudra POI is a process that takes months, how is Mahamudra supposed to be so well suited for Western students?

Kagyu Mahamudra is gradual and experiential, so some people think it is a more suitable instruction for acquainting people with the nature of the mind.

Dzogchen introduction is also experiential, but it really depends on the student's acumen to get it since it is not as gradual and step by step.

N

Do they both point out/introduce the same "thing"?

[conebeckham]

In some sense, Kagyu Mahamudra is gradual and experiential, yes. The "investigations" one makes are in steps, or are laid out in steps, in the guidance manuals. But individual situations vary, and skillful teachers who know their students will give appropriate instructions.
When it comes to the "Birth of Meditation Practice," however, which is the recognition of nondual samatha/vipassana, the basic natural state, so-called "Ordinary Mind," Mahamudra..... I'm not sure words such as "gradual" or "immediate" really apply.