Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

[heart]

Getting transmission, getting a guru, getting a lineage and getting samaya vows would only make me more conditioned.

It would take me AWAY from enlightenment.

It is because you have limited view of the meaning of guru,lineage and samaya that you think that. For me those words means vivid openness and freedom.

/magnus

[Sönam]

Getting transmission, getting a guru, getting a lineage and getting samaya vows would only make me more conditioned.

It would take me AWAY from enlightenment.

How is it possible to be taken away from enlightenment ? ... if not "already enlightened" it is useful as deconditioning tools (when correctely used)

Sönam

[Jikan]

I thought this was a general buddhist forum?

Not just Vajrayana?

I am still a buddhist who takes refuge in the Triple Gems.

OK. If you don't mind, do you identify with any particular Buddhist tradition? practice with a sangha, or at least participate in one?

[Enochian]

.....

[Enochian]

Its kinda funny, 'cause even the direct-transmissions schools like Rinzai Zen require a Zen master to facilitate the process.

I understand this. But Dalai Lama himself gives 50% of it away when he says there is a discrepency between thoughtforms and reality. And this is in every nonrestricted book in the bookstore by him.

[Malcolm]

Its kinda funny, 'cause even the direct-transmissions schools like Rinzai Zen require a Zen master to facilitate the process.

I understand this. But Dalai Lama himself gives 50% of it away when he says there is a discrepency between thoughtforms and reality. And this is in every nonrestricted book in the bookstore by him.

You might have some idea about emptiness. But you don't understand Dzogchen at all.

N

[adinatha]

I take refuge in the Triple Gems. And I also have a Mahayana aspiration to obtain perfect omniscient Buddhahood as fast as possible to help infinite sentient beings.

I don't know... maybe you cigcarwa..

[adinatha]

Getting transmission, getting a guru, getting a lineage and getting samaya vows would only make me more conditioned.

It would take me AWAY from enlightenment.

You seriously need to read "Old Man Basking in the Sun," and "Eye of the Storm," both by Keith Dowman, same translator for "Flight of the Garuda." Dowman gives commentaries in these that support your assertion. You are not alone in thinking this way.

[Enochian]

Its kinda funny, 'cause even the direct-transmissions schools like Rinzai Zen require a Zen master to facilitate the process.

I understand this. But Dalai Lama himself gives 50% of it away when he says there is a discrepency between thoughtforms and reality. And this is in every nonrestricted book in the bookstore by him.

You might have some idea about emptiness. But you don't understand Dzogchen at all.

N

Why would I understand Dzogchen? I never had transmission.

[Malcolm]

Why would I understand Dzogchen? I never had transmission.

Then it is pointless for you to make any proclamations about it or imagine it is "limited" and so on.

N

[Enochian]

Why would I understand Dzogchen? I never had transmission.

Then it is pointless for you to make any proclamations about it or imagine it is "limited" and so on.

N

If you 100% NEED a transmission to understand Dzogchen, that means it is conditioned.

Thats just logic. Its nothing that I need to "imagine."

[adinatha]

[gnegirl]

Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn’t there
He wasn’t there again today
Oh, how I wish he’d go away

When I came home last night at three
The man was waiting there for me
But when I looked around the hall
I couldn’t see him there at all!
Go away, go away, don’t you come back any more!
Go away, go away, and please don’t slam the door

Last night I saw upon the stair
A little man who wasn’t there
He wasn’t there again today
Oh, how I wish he’d go away

"Antigonish" (1899)[2]

--William Hughes Mearns

[Mr. G]

Getting transmission, getting a guru, getting a lineage and getting samaya vows would only make me more conditioned.

It would take me AWAY from enlightenment.

If you 100% NEED a transmission to understand Dzogchen, that means it is conditioned.

Thats just logic. Its nothing that I need to "imagine."

From what you're saying, you think all that is conditioned is impure, but Vasubhandu in the Kosha writes:

4b-c. Conditioned dharmas, with the exception of the Path, are
impure

With the exception of the Path, all conditioned dharmas are
defiled.

[adinatha]

I think all he is saying is that conditioned is conditioned and unconditioned is unconditioned.

[Mr. G]

I think all he is saying is that conditioned is conditioned and unconditioned is unconditioned.

Oooh, I see. He was using the word "conditioned" as in an acquired behavior pattern?

[Enochian]

Ok let me put it in another way.

If you 100% NEED a transmission to understand your natural state, it would NOT be natural would it?

[Josef]

Ok let me put it in another way.

If you 100% NEED a transmission to understand your natural state, it would NOT be natural would it?

Not necessarily.
Plants need sunlight to grow. Pretty natural.

[Enochian]

Ok let me put it in another way.

If you 100% NEED a transmission to understand your natural state, it would NOT be natural would it?

Not necessarily.
Plants need sunlight to grow. Pretty natural.

But Dzogchen explicitly says it is not a path of transformation.

You are describing transformation.

[Malcolm]

If you 100% NEED a transmission to understand Dzogchen, that means it is conditioned.

No, it just means that people are conditioned.

Dzogchen is a personal experience of one's actual state. For that you simply need someone who has that knowledge to show you the same. It is not something you will ever figure out on your own. That is your limitation, not the limitation of the teachings.

It is for example like a begger who uses a rock for a pillow, never dreaming that inside the rock is a precious diamond.