Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

[Enochian]

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[ngodrup]

If you think that, you're in hell already!

[adinatha]

I'm going to put my Atigotra hat back on and say Enochian needs to judge his own serkumstansiz in figyer iht owt fer hehmcelf bikuz thehr iz noh wei too kno iff hi nohz iny theng oar knot. Fir awl wee gno hihee iza boodah n iz ckrooin wit ahs twoo dischrohee aur kahnscehpchewl cohnnscherahktz.

[Enochian]

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[Tilopa]

I definitively realized my own nature ....

Another self realized self proclaimed enlightened master. Just what this world needs. How wonderful.

I was working with chakras for my OBE and astral projection practice...

And that's dharma is it?

[Enochian]

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[kirtu]

I am NOT approaching Vajrayana.

Do you want to study Buddhist Vajrayana? Then find a teacher.

My point is that I was working with chakras and OBE WAY BEFORE I EVEN HEARD OF "COMPLETION STAGE"

Chakras are used in Hindu and other practices across the board. Very generally they aren't used in Buddhist Vajrayana or Mahayana.

My second point is that I realized the nature of the mind WAY BEFORE I EVEN HEARD OF VAJRAYANA OR DZOGCHEN

See, just because the terminology and even some outer forms are similar doesn't mean that the subjects have anything to do with one another. You have recognized the nature of mind and people still get on your nerves in an overt way? If so then your recognition of the "nature of mind" doesn't mean much.

Kirt

[adinatha]

Another self realized self proclaimed enlightened master. Just what this world needs. How wonderful.

No master here. I am not going to teach you anything. I would just refer you to buddhism.

That's what Tilopa said.

[Enochian]

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[Tilopa]

I don't. Did you even read this thread?

So why join a buddhist vajrayana forum in the first place?
You have nothing of value to say and no interest in learning from us.
Maybe it's time to move on...

[Enochian]

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[username]

Many non-Dzogchenpas/Chagchenpas of various old or trendy ways have stated their fantasies of realizing and keeping alive rigpa and progressing on it's many stages. Also if I take some water from my kitchen faucet in a plastic bottle and empty it in the ocean then I can't say the ocean is a plastic container. A car is not it's destination. Finally saying one admires Shakyamuni's teachings but is not ready for vajrayana and Dzogchen samayas is refreshingly honest and highly admirable these days and shows one is already in abiding in one of the many lower states.

[adinatha]

Your mind is already in a commitment. You can't tell?

[Tara]

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[Enochian]

Chakras are used in Hindu and other practices across the board. Very generally they aren't used in Buddhist Vajrayana or Mahayana.

Kirt

Have you heard of completion stage?

[Madeliaette]

The surprising part is: My second point is that I realized the nature of the mind WAY BEFORE I EVEN HEARD OF VAJRAYANA OR DZOGCHEN.
This is harder to believe. I think it's possible, but rare. Even so one needs a teacher afterwards, being the case. However, most who claim this simply think they got it while in fact they haven't. Not saying it's your case.

I have also done much work on my mental functions prior to re-discovering Buddhism. I separated my mental functions into think mind, feel mind, sense mind and know mind. I have also 'found out' a lot of things 'before' - but I also realize that if it took me 40 years of this current life for me to have re-discovered Buddhism, even if things seem to fall into place very simply, there must be a reason for my having had to wait 40 years. This means that although I know that I have previously studied Dzogchen - I also know that at some point I must have made a serious mistake, or I would otherwise have been reborn into a Buddhist family and started out with a Buddhist background. I do not want to make that mistake again, whatever it was...

This makes me double-check EVERYTHING i 'think' I 'know'.
This makes me LISTEN to other Dzogchen practitioners' advice.
This makes me LISTEN to the only teacher I have yet studied with in a 2-way connection.
This makes me READ and LEARN all I have the opportunity to.
This makes me seek to know I know, rather than think I know...

So, I can see both sides of the story - the 'know beforehand' and the 'is what I know known correctly' sides....
Working with what I know, I still know I need to know more... I am not a Buddha, just someone who has previously started on the path finding their memories from a former life very helpful...
I do not know you enough to tell you what to do - but my suggestion is to question what you think you know until you know you know, and even then to seek guidance - from other practitioners, a teacher/teachers, studies...

One of the things I keep on coming up against is the fact that just because I have 'done this before' - I still need to 'do it again'.

[gregkavarnos]

Shiiiiittttt.... I need to do it every day and still...

[Sönam]

I'm not claiming I realized Dzogchen, because that is only possible with transmission.

But if you NEED transmission to realize something, that means that it is conditioned. Along with samaya vows, that is what prevents me from becoming a Dzogchen practitioner.

With the label Dzogchen it certainly needs a transmission ... but who cares of a label. Then it's not that you NEED transmission, but without it how could it be realized ? It would be only an experience.

Sönam

[Enochian]

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[gnegirl]

Getting transmission, getting a guru, getting a lineage and getting samaya vows would only make me more conditioned.

It would take me AWAY from enlightenment.

Its kinda funny, 'cause even the direct-transmissions schools like Rinzai Zen require a Zen master to facilitate the process.

Buddhist vows, in general, DE-condition us from what we are truley experts at: creating more reasons to remain in samsara (ie: making more suffering, we're EXPERTS without peer at this one!). Pratimoksha, Bodhisattva and Samaya all point toward this dis-assembly of bad habits and preconditions.

Don't discard the idea entirely w/o making certain there is no lingering habit-energy that could eventually throw one into a lower realm(mind-state).