Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Enochian » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:20 am

Namdrol wrote:Mind is always impure, from a Dzogchen point of view, in fact. This is why there are Dzogchen criticisms of the nine yanas.

N


Namdrol wrote:But if you want to consider your discursive thoughts to be dharmakāya, go ahead and be my guest. It's your practice and not mine.

N



I bow to this wisdom

:bow:
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby heart » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:38 am

adinatha wrote:
heart wrote:I would just like to mention, might be a reason for the confusion in this thread, that in Mahamudra approach sem and rigpa is distinguished at the end of the path rather than in the beginning as in Dzogchen.

/magnus


There are many mahamudra approaches. Can you be more specific? I presume you mean the nyingthig approach in Dzogchen here.


Yes, in Nyingthik you start with the separation. I am not really a Mahamudra practitioner so what I have to say about this comes from my Guru, Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche. He normally teach according to the Essence Mahamudra style. It is true there are many approaches in Mahamudra but there are no separation practices or teachings as the preliminaries in any Mahamudra approach to my knowledge. This, according to my Guru, is the biggest difference between Mahamudra and Dzogchen, that there is no separation in Mahamudra.

/magnus
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:46 am

heart wrote:
adinatha wrote:
heart wrote:I would just like to mention, might be a reason for the confusion in this thread, that in Mahamudra approach sem and rigpa is distinguished at the end of the path rather than in the beginning as in Dzogchen.

/magnus


There are many mahamudra approaches. Can you be more specific? I presume you mean the nyingthig approach in Dzogchen here.


Yes, in Nyingthik you start with the separation. I am not really a Mahamudra practitioner so what I have to say about this comes from my Guru, Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche. He normally teach according to the Essence Mahamudra style. It is true there are many approaches in Mahamudra but there are no separation practices or teachings as the preliminaries in any Mahamudra approach to my knowledge. This, according to my Guru, is the biggest difference between Mahamudra and Dzogchen, that there is no separation in Mahamudra.

/magnus


That's right in essence mahamudra there is no sem/rigpa distinction. However, in Gampopa's essence mahamudra instructions, Gampopa describes everything as rigpa, "isolating the pure part," "handing" discursive thought over to "pure rigpa." Pure rigpa is arrived at through guru yoga blessings. Then, you bring discursive thought onto the path, by "looking right into the discursiveness" seeing no color or shape, it is mind's nature itself, dharmata.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby heart » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:35 am

adinatha wrote:That's right in essence mahamudra there is no sem/rigpa distinction. However, in Gampopa's essence mahamudra instructions, Gampopa describes everything as rigpa, "isolating the pure part," "handing" discursive thought over to "pure rigpa." Pure rigpa is arrived at through guru yoga blessings. Then, you bring discursive thought onto the path, by "looking right into the discursiveness" seeing no color or shape, it is mind's nature itself, dharmata.


I have not received Gampopas Essenence Mahamudra instructions but it surprise me that he would use the word rigpa meaning the natural state. Anyway, what you describe here above is typical Mahamudra. Shakya Sri writes like this in "The Vital Essence":

"The teachings in the Mind and Space section as well as in the Mahamudra system, tell us that the very core practice is to allow coarse and subtle thoughts to naturally vanish by looking in to their essence and letting them go in naturalness. Though this may be so it conflict directly with the view of the Great Perfection. Therefore it is extreamly important that while having recognized the natural state you allow all coarse and subtle thoughts - whatever arises as the expression of this empty and cognizant awareness - to be groundless and rootless and to be liberated simultaneous with arising, just like a wave naturally subsiding back into the water. This is the sublime and vital point." [From: Quintessential Dzogchen]

This is a very subtle point and one could perhaps find it difficult to grasp the difference, but this quote point directly to the difference between sem and rigpa that is so essential in the Nyingthik teachings.

/magnus
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby alpha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:42 am

when it comes to experience and being experienced in the visions of thogal i have read somewhere that there aren't many teachers nowadays who can guide through these visions..
Some can guide you up and through to the second vision but from there onwards up to the fourth or fifth-depending on which teaching you were given-there aren't many who can do that .

The way i understand it is that if someone can guide you through the last vision of thogal, that someone must have achieved already the body of light...
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby heart » Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:53 pm

alpha wrote:when it comes to experience and being experienced in the visions of thogal i have read somewhere that there aren't many teachers nowadays who can guide through these visions..
Some can guide you up and through to the second vision but from there onwards up to the fourth or fifth-depending on which teaching you were given-there aren't many who can do that .

The way i understand it is that if someone can guide you through the last vision of thogal, that someone must have achieved already the body of light...


Not so sure about that, there doesn't seem to be much guiding to do at a certain point.

/magnus
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Enochian » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:45 pm

adinatha wrote:That's right in essence mahamudra there is no sem/rigpa distinction.



Which is probably why you are confused on this issue, since that is what you are primarily trained in.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:08 pm

Enochian wrote:
adinatha wrote:That's right in essence mahamudra there is no sem/rigpa distinction.



Which is probably why you are confused on this issue, since that is what you are primarily trained in.


I'm not confused. Reality is reality and method is method. Combine the two in one where there's no separation, distinction or any words to say whatsoever. The luminous essence of the flash of knowing, whether in knowing or unknowing, is a perpetual vajra samadhi. When the guru tosses that ember of mind's essence within your scarecrow body, and ignites the straw of mind, everything blazes blissfully as rigpa's own energy. Call it Mahamudra. Call it Ati. Call it Stan. Rigpa blazes now. The five lights will appear of their own, and togal method can be entered. Appearances will proceed swiftly when everything blazes as rigpa's light. This is a rapid siddhi. But you ultimately arrive at the beginning. The reality of this here is beyond logic. But don't let me confuse you. What you have faith about, go there now. Those who get what I'm driving at... :soapbox:
Last edited by adinatha on Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Enochian » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:08 pm

Namdrol wrote:The basis for one system is not always the the basis for another system. For example, the basis in Dzogchen teachings is not the mind.

Dzogchen distinguishes various kinds of basis depending on whether we are talking about sems sde, klong sde or man ngag sde.

So in Dzogchen man ngag sde the basis is vidyā (rig pa), and not mind. Mind is an adventitious obscuration to be given up. As Longchenpa states in the Lama Yangthig:

"The essence of mind is the all-basis and the group of eight. The essence of vidyā is beyond the all-basis and the group of eight."

So you cannot be hasty and just lump everything together in a sort of a putanesca sauce of teachings.

Dzogchen is not easy. It is very subtle, and so hard to understand.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Enochian » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:11 pm

I must defer to Namdrol on these issues since he is essentially a Lama (if he took on students, he would be a full Lama) and he has been a formal Dzogchen practitioner for 20 years.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:14 pm

Enochian wrote:
Namdrol wrote:The basis for one system is not always the the basis for another system. For example, the basis in Dzogchen teachings is not the mind.

Dzogchen distinguishes various kinds of basis depending on whether we are talking about sems sde, klong sde or man ngag sde.

So in Dzogchen man ngag sde the basis is vidyā (rig pa), and not mind. Mind is an adventitious obscuration to be given up. As Longchenpa states in the Lama Yangthig:

"The essence of mind is the all-basis and the group of eight. The essence of vidyā is beyond the all-basis and the group of eight."

So you cannot be hasty and just lump everything together in a sort of a putanesca sauce of teachings.

Dzogchen is not easy. It is very subtle, and so hard to understand.


Inseparability, spontaneity, emptiness, openness.
You take a beryl gem and turn it around looking at this side and that.
You find the right angle and hold it up to the sun.
One ray comes in, magnified, it blazes,
And projects infinite dimensions into space,
Penetrating the dimensionless,
And liberating existence and nonexistence.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:35 pm

Understand? Dzogchen is about understanding?

You reckon someone can understand the natural luminosity of mind?

Lacking a centre but with no sense of loss,
sight without seeing,
movement without motion,
blindingly bright yet crystal clear.
The ignorant look amongst words for its presence,
the wise to its realisation through experience.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:38 pm

Enochian wrote:I must defer to Namdrol on these issues since he is essentially a Lama (if he took on students, he would be a full Lama) and he has been a formal Dzogchen practitioner for 20 years.


The nyingthig methodology has its function. I prefer Longchenpa's Treasuries. For me they are Atiyoga par exellence. I'm sure I have an unusual take on these things, but I go with what I see. Obtaining rainbow body is actually not important to me. Just this Ati knowledge is the goal. I feel like everything is already a rainbow body. Illusion is just a figment. I give it no weight. Based on the affinity in my heart for all beings, I contemplate a vision of an easy spontaneous liberation beyond stages. I'm not just trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Maya yoga is Atiyoga, and Ati is the limit of limits of yoga.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:42 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Understand? Dzogchen is about understanding?

You reckon someone can understand the natural luminosity of mind?

Lacking a centre but with no sense of loss,
sight without seeing,
movement without motion,
blindingly bright yet crystal clear.
The ignorant look amongst words for its presence,
the wise to its realisation through experience.
:namaste:


You got me there. Now I'm confused.
How do I know I'm confused?
That is a powerful teaching.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Enochian » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:43 pm

adinatha wrote:I'm sure I have an unusual take on these things.



LOL

It would have been helpful if you admitted this earlier. :toilet:
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Enochian » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:46 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Understand? Dzogchen is about understanding?

You reckon someone can understand the natural luminosity of mind?



Dzogchen is not about mind.

It it about understanding one's own real nature.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:47 pm

Enochian wrote:
adinatha wrote:I'm sure I have an unusual take on these things.



LOL

It would have been helpful if you admitted this earlier. :toilet:


:meditate:
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:48 pm

Enochian wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Understand? Dzogchen is about understanding?

You reckon someone can understand the natural luminosity of mind?



Dzogchen is not about mind.

It it about understanding one's own real nature.


:buddha1:
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:52 pm

Enochian wrote:Dzogchen is not about mind.

It it about understanding one's own real nature.
Surely understanding is a quality/process that is dependent on mind?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Enochian » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:54 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Enochian wrote:Dzogchen is not about mind.

It it about understanding one's own real nature.
Surely understanding is a quality/process that is dependent on mind?
:namaste:


I doubt it.

Rigpa (vidya) is a different type of knowledge, than intellectual knowledge.

This is just based on my understanding. I don't claim to be a Dzogchen practitioner.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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