Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:03 am

Namdrol wrote:Mind is always impure, from a Dzogchen point of view, in fact. This is why there are Dzogchen criticisms of the nine yanas.


That's part of a nyingthig methodological jargon that makes a mind/rigpa distinction. What's rigpa, space? Not.

If you think concepts are dharmakāya, your practice is screwed before it has even begun.

In Ati these days, conceited elephants [claim]
the mass of discursive concepts is bodhicitta.


chos dbying mdzod



N


This is what happens when you take a provisional understanding to be final.

At the Stage of Reaching Full Measure "whatever appears [including mountains and trees] shines forth as the universal purity."

Yeshe Lama

Mind itself is a vast expanse, the realm of unchanging space.
Its indeterminate display is the expanse of the magical
expression of its responsiveness.
Everything is the adornment of dharmadhatu and nothing else.
Outwardly and inwardly, things proliferating and resolving are
the dynamic energy of awakened mind.
Because this is nothing whatsoever yet arises as anything at all,
it is a marvelous and magical expression, amazing and superb.

Throughout the entire universe, all beings and all that manifests
as form
are adornments of dharmadhatu, arising as the ongoing principle
of enlightened form.
What is audible, all sounds and voices without exception,
as many as there may be,
are adornments of basic space, arising as the ongoing principle
of enlightened speech.
All consciousness and all stirring and proliferation of thoughts,
as well as the inconceivable range of nonconceptual states,
are adornments of dharmadhatu, arising as the ongoing principle
of enlightened mind.


Longchenpa "Treasury of Dharmadhatu"

In the field of ordinary experience lies pure pleasure,
itself the pristine purity of mundane existence;
in every perception finite light is concentrated
and boundless space is established


The Eternal Victory Banner of Vajrasattva

It is certain that whatever appearances occur, all of them are self-manifested.
Like images in a mirror being self-manifestation that simply appear.


Guru Padma "Self-Liberation: Seeing Through with Naked Awareness"

Atiyoga masters say in many places that when the view is actualized, all appearances shine forth as the liveliness of dharmata or as the ornamentation of dharmata or as dharmakaya itself. All namthog means all appearances must be recognized as maya as self-appearance. The appearance of a thought or vedana here is not conceptualized, burn out like sparks flying off a fire. They are experienced as pure pleasure. Tregcho 101, no acceptance or rejection. In Atiyoga proper there's no possibility of accepting or rejecting because you have found yourself. This is the nature of dharmadhatu, no method can fix it, improve on it, dissect it or isolate it. The method of the nyingthig provides the possibility to reach a full realization and understanding at the same time, meaning you can get started with an incomplete view. The Third Statement of Garab Dorje doesn't have a 3(a) or a 3(b), but it can be divied up like that for the sake of those to be trained.
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:07 am

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Mind is always impure, from a Dzogchen point of view, in fact. This is why there are Dzogchen criticisms of the nine yanas.


That's part of a nyingthig methodological jargon that makes a mind/rigpa distinction. What's rigpa, space? Not.

If you think concepts are dharmakāya, your practice is screwed before it has even begun.

In Ati these days, conceited elephants [claim]
the mass of discursive concepts is bodhicitta.


chos dbying mdzod



N


This is what happens when you take a provisional understanding to be final.


None of the citations you have provided contradict the basic point Longchenpa is making above

But if you want to consider your discursive thoughts to be dharmakāya, go ahead and be my guest. It's your practice and not mine.

N
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:12 am

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Mind is always impure, from a Dzogchen point of view, in fact. This is why there are Dzogchen criticisms of the nine yanas.


That's part of a nyingthig methodological jargon that makes a mind/rigpa distinction. What's rigpa, space? Not.


Rigpa (vidyā) simply means knowledge, as opposed to avidyā, ignorance.

But I am not going to argue you with about these things. It appears that you are an expert in Dzogchen. Fantastic. We shall be looking for your rainbow body soon.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:18 am

adinatha wrote:
Atiyoga masters say in many places that when the view is actualized, all appearances shine forth as the liveliness of dharmata or as the ornamentation of dharmata or as dharmakaya itself. All namthog means all appearances must be recognized as maya as self-appearance. The appearance of a thought or vedana here is not conceptualized...


You seem to think appearances are mental factors, such as vedana, etc., based on your comments. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Longchenpa rejects this idea, and rejects the mentalism you seem to be advocating.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:30 am

Namdrol wrote:None of the citations you have provided contradict the basic point Longchenpa is making above

But if you want to consider your discursive thoughts to be dharmakāya, go ahead and be my guest. It's your practice and not mine.

N


What that means is if the master's direct introduction and blessings haven't entered your mindstream, then one is an elephant if he thinks thoughts are dharmakaya. But in the vastness of the view, everything is.
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:33 am

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Mind is always impure, from a Dzogchen point of view, in fact. This is why there are Dzogchen criticisms of the nine yanas.


That's part of a nyingthig methodological jargon that makes a mind/rigpa distinction. What's rigpa, space? Not.


Rigpa (vidyā) simply means knowledge, as opposed to avidyā, ignorance.

But I am not going to argue you with about these things. It appears that you are an expert in Dzogchen. Fantastic. We shall be looking for your rainbow body soon.

N


I'm praying for a rainbow population.
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:36 am

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:None of the citations you have provided contradict the basic point Longchenpa is making above

But if you want to consider your discursive thoughts to be dharmakāya, go ahead and be my guest. It's your practice and not mine.

N


What that means is if the master's direct introduction and blessings haven't entered your mindstream, then one is an elephant if he thinks thoughts are dharmakaya. But in the vastness of the view, everything is.


Whatever you like to think.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:44 am

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Atiyoga masters say in many places that when the view is actualized, all appearances shine forth as the liveliness of dharmata or as the ornamentation of dharmata or as dharmakaya itself. All namthog means all appearances must be recognized as maya as self-appearance. The appearance of a thought or vedana here is not conceptualized...


You seem to think appearances are mental factors, such as vedana, etc., based on your comments. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Longchenpa rejects this idea, and rejects the mentalism you seem to be advocating.

N


I'm not advocating an ism. Grasping is a mental factor. Nongrasping is dharmakaya. Even in sahaja-mahamudra thoughts and vedana self-appear and self-dissolve into self-luminous ecstasy. In some terminology one would say one must be in a state of guru yoga. But in the auto-praxis of direct perception, there's no going into or coming out of guru yoga.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Enochian » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:46 am

Hi Adinatha,

Are you aware that Jigme Lingpa advocates distinguishing rigpa from samsaric mind in his Mennagade instructions?

"Jigmé Lingpa insists upon the importance of the distinction. He argues that, if the meditator attempts to stop conceptual activity without distinguishing between mind (sems) and awareness (rig pa), the result is a blank indeterminacy (lung ma bstan). In awareness, he argues, conceptualisation is neutralised in a state that is “like a crystal ball”, a simile which points to clarity and vividness, rather than indeterminacy and blankness." Sam van Schaik
Last edited by Enochian on Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:57 am, edited 3 times in total.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:47 am

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:None of the citations you have provided contradict the basic point Longchenpa is making above

But if you want to consider your discursive thoughts to be dharmakāya, go ahead and be my guest. It's your practice and not mine.

N


What that means is if the master's direct introduction and blessings haven't entered your mindstream, then one is an elephant if he thinks thoughts are dharmakaya. But in the vastness of the view, everything is.


Whatever you like to think.


:rolleye:
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:53 am

Enochian wrote:Hi Adinatha,

Are you aware that Jigme Lingpa advocates distinguishing rigpa from samsaric mind in his Mennagade instructions?

"Jigmé Lingpa insists upon the importance of the distinction. He argues that, if the meditator attempts to stop conceptual activity without distinguishing between mind (sems) and awareness (rig pa), the result is a blank indeterminacy (lung ma bstan). In awareness, he argues, conceptualisation is neutralised in a state that is “like a crystal ball”, a simile which points to clarity and vividness, rather than indeterminacy and blankness." Sam van Schaik


Yes of course. That happens at the korde rushen stage. Did you know that for some practitioners of togal appearances will immediately exhaust at the beginning of the appearance of Dharmata in Direct Perception? This is because of non-grasping of appearances. That doesn't mean they immediately go to great transference.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Enochian » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:56 am

I should have used the whole quote:


"Jigmé Lingpa’s differentiation of the two approaches is based on the distinction, particular to the Instruction Series (man ngag sde) of the Great Perfection, between the samsaric, conceptual mind (sems), and nirvanic, non-conceptual awareness (rig pa). The meditation practices of the Instruction Series found in the Longchen Nyingtig proceed on the basis of this distinction, which comes from the earliest Instruction Series scriptures, the Seventeen Tantras. Therefore it is not surprising that Jigmé Lingpa insists upon the importance of the distinction. He argues that, if the meditator attempts to stop conceptual activity without distinguishing between mind (sems) and awareness (rig pa), the result is a blank indeterminacy (lung ma bstan). In awareness, he argues, conceptualisation is neutralised in a state that is “like a crystal ball”, a simile which points to clarity and vividness, rather than indeterminacy and blankness." Sam van Schaik
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:59 am

Enochian wrote:I should have used the whole quote:


"Jigmé Lingpa’s differentiation of the two approaches is based on the distinction, particular to the Instruction Series (man ngag sde) of the Great Perfection, between the samsaric, conceptual mind (sems), and nirvanic, non-conceptual awareness (rig pa). The meditation practices of the Instruction Series found in the Longchen Nyingtig proceed on the basis of this distinction, which comes from the earliest Instruction Series scriptures, the Seventeen Tantras. Therefore it is not surprising that Jigmé Lingpa insists upon the importance of the distinction. He argues that, if the meditator attempts to stop conceptual activity without distinguishing between mind (sems) and awareness (rig pa), the result is a blank indeterminacy (lung ma bstan). In awareness, he argues, conceptualisation is neutralised in a state that is “like a crystal ball”, a simile which points to clarity and vividness, rather than indeterminacy and blankness." Sam van Schaik


That doesn't change my previous response.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby username » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:21 am

Overemphasis on clarity and related experiences such as bliss is sometimes useful as a 'method' in some beginner-to-advanced phases to make progress and can even strengthen the life-force. Other less wholesome ones like substanialism and(paradoxically)/or mentalism often stowaway as excess baggage. But the inseparable king aspect of emptiness as essence can not be relegated for once samsara and nirvana are eaten up by the ground, it still has not changed the nature of it's self illumination. For too much clarity the remedy is emptiness, and vice-versa.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Enochian » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:42 am

adinatha wrote:That doesn't change my previous response.


Distinguishing rigpa from sems is not some beginner newbie rushen teaching.

It is the ultimate trechod teaching.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:46 am

Enochian wrote:
adinatha wrote:That doesn't change my previous response.


Distinguishing rigpa from sems is not some beginner newbie rushen teaching.

It is the ultimate trechod teaching.


Trechod is not the ulimate. Togal is. Then there are four stages...

In the one cat's eye gem, under different conditions,
distinct images of fire or water appear;
just so, in the one source, intrinsic gnosis
illusions of both samsara and nirvana appear,
one of recognition, the other of ignorance,
both based on the single nondual pure mind.


Longchenpa "Treasury of Natural Abiding"
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Enochian » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:56 am

Yeah but I was talking about trechod only. Distinguishing rigpa from sems is the ultimate trechod teaching.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:07 am

Enochian wrote:Yeah but I was talking about trechod only. Distinguishing rigpa from sems is the ultimate trechod teaching.


By the time you get to tregcho, ripga is isolated, and you enter self-illumination effortlessness.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby heart » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:12 am

I would just like to mention, might be a reason for the confusion in this thread, that in Mahamudra approach sem and rigpa is distinguished at the end of the path rather than in the beginning as in Dzogchen.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:17 am

heart wrote:I would just like to mention, might be a reason for the confusion in this thread, that in Mahamudra approach sem and rigpa is distinguished at the end of the path rather than in the beginning as in Dzogchen.

/magnus


There are many mahamudra approaches. Can you be more specific? I presume you mean the nyingthig approach in Dzogchen here.
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