Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Enochian » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:51 pm

But anyway since we are talking about vayus and Dzogchen....

On the Bon forum (not here) someone "knowledgeable" stated that before one practices Direct Crossing (Leap Over) one needs to slow down the "karmic winds" for 9 days. This sounded nonsense to me on multiple levels.
Last edited by Enochian on Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby adinatha » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:54 pm

Namdrol wrote:
The one vehicle approach is very prevalent in Jigten Sumgon's Gongchig. Kagyu people herald this work as representative of all Kagyu lineages.


The one vehicle view does not imply that all yanas have the same intention.

The one vehicle approach is just a kind of Mahāyāna triumphalism that asserts the ultimate goal of all buddhist paths is true perfect full awakening as conceived in Mahāyāna.

Also Sakya heralds the ekayāna, but this does not mean, for example, that hinayāna vows have the same intention as Mahāyāna vows and so on and so forth. I understand that Drikungpa may feel differently about this.

N


Gongchig states that all yanas are as one vehicle. I realize this is not quite the same thing as Mahayana One Vehicle view a la Lankavatara Sutra, but it's pretty damn close. Another way of understanding Gongchig is not single intention, but single direction/trajectory. In Gongchig, Vajrayana is subset of mahayana, special methods in the mahayana view of reality. There, hinayana vows help, support and enhance both mahayana and tantric vows, methods and results.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Josef » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:57 pm

Enochian wrote:But anyway since we are talking about vayus and Dzogchen....

On the Bon forum (not here) someone "knowledgeable" stated that before one practices Direct Crossing (Leap Over) one needs to slow down the "karmic winds" for 9 days. This sounded nonsense to me on multiple levels.

I know nothing of the dzogchen prelims in Bon but perhaps this was a reference to some kind of rushen or other preliminary practice.
Not necessarily nonsense.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Enochian » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:59 pm

Nangwa wrote:
Enochian wrote:But anyway since we are talking about vayus and Dzogchen....

On the Bon forum (not here) someone "knowledgeable" stated that before one practices Direct Crossing (Leap Over) one needs to slow down the "karmic winds" for 9 days. This sounded nonsense to me on multiple levels.

I know nothing of the dzogchen prelims in Bon but perhaps this was a reference to some kind of rushen or other preliminary practice.
Not necessarily nonsense.



No they specifically said you have to do this for the HIGHEST Dzogchen practices.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:00 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:...This text is quite late. Likely by the same Nāgārjuna that wrote the Pañcakrama.


And this is not mere speculation, because...?



Because Guhyasamaja and Vajrasattva were not extant in 200 CE.

Not only this but the Bodhicittavivarana mention the ālayavijñana and the three natures. AFAIK, it is unlikely that Sandhinirmocana was fully composed until the 3rd Century CE, the Lanka is definitely post-Nāgārjuna, and the Maitreya Chapter in the PP sutras was a later Yogacara interpolation.

The author of the Bodhicitta Vivarana was the disciple of Saraha. In the Sakya version of sahaja-mahāmudra, this text and one of the dohas of Saraha (which one I forget) are critical commentaries. So from a Sakya POV, the Sahaja-Mahāmudra lineage of Saraha and NāgaArjuna is very connected with Guhyasamaja.

N
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Josef » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:01 pm

Enochian wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
Enochian wrote:But anyway since we are talking about vayus and Dzogchen....

On the Bon forum (not here) someone "knowledgeable" stated that before one practices Direct Crossing (Leap Over) one needs to slow down the "karmic winds" for 9 days. This sounded nonsense to me on multiple levels.

I know nothing of the dzogchen prelims in Bon but perhaps this was a reference to some kind of rushen or other preliminary practice.
Not necessarily nonsense.



No they specifically said you have to do this for the HIGHEST Dzogchen practices.

I understand that.
Thats why I prefaced my statement and included, "some other preliminary practice".
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:35 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:...This text is quite late. Likely by the same Nāgārjuna that wrote the Pañcakrama.


And this is not mere speculation, because...?



Because Guhyasamaja and Vajrasattva were not extant in 200 CE.

Not only this but the Bodhicittavivarana mention the ālayavijñana and the three natures. AFAIK, it is unlikely that Sandhinirmocana was fully composed until the 3rd Century CE, the Lanka is definitely post-Nāgārjuna, and the Maitreya Chapter in the PP sutras was a later Yogacara interpolation.

The author of the Bodhicitta Vivarana was the disciple of Saraha. In the Sakya version of sahaja-mahāmudra, this text and one of the dohas of Saraha (which one I forget) are critical commentaries. So from a Sakya POV, the Sahaja-Mahāmudra lineage of Saraha and NāgaArjuna is very connected with Guhyasamaja.

N


That makes sense, hence the connection with clear light. I believe Saraha also revealed a Mahamudra Tantra or some such. Anyway, Saraha's King Doha is the seminal text of sahaja mahamudra.
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby adinatha » Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:51 pm

Namdrol wrote:In Dzogchen, mind and matter exist because of avidya. When there is no more avidyā,for you there is niether mind nor matter.

But to get back to the main point -- for example we talk about "subtle minds". What are subtle minds, what makes them subtle? The reduced frequency of spanda, pulsation, movement of the vāyu in the body. When the vāyu moves, concepts arise -- no movement, no concepts. No concepts, nothing really we can all mind at all. When the vāyu moves very little, then we call that "a subtle mind". Sutra for example, has no methods to reduce the movement of vāyu to such an extent that such "subtle minds" are accessed. In sutra methods, the movements of mind are always coarse -- apart from that fact that as a bodhisattva moves through the paths and stages the physical body they appropriate becomes ever more refined and thus the movement of vāyu becomes ever more subtle and unobstructed, especially after the eighth bhumi. But this is a very external approach, taking a long time.

N


This is mind/subtle mind in the impure sense or in the mind/nature of mind dichotomy. Discursive mind. When there is absolutely no movement of mind, you can say there is no mind. You can also say there is pure rigpa. Even in the Arahat path, there is a method to access purity. The Bhagavan only mentions it specifically in three places in the Pali canon, but "pure consciousness without surface," is the nirvana of legend. Clearly there are no concepts there. More importantly, this mind/nature of mind and separating samsara and nirvana and all that preparation for Togal is method, not view. The method says you can't achieve the perfect view in extremely rapid fashion unless you isolate rigpa tsal. But the view is all namthog are dharmakaya, and all kayas are complete in dharmakaya. In the Arahat path once stream entry is established, there is subtle mind in breath shamatha and pure mind accessed in the fourth dhyana. The Mahayana method lineages are more difficult to parse. They basically retain this Arahat method with the bodhisattva vow plus Nargarjuna thinking then it follows Maitreyanath's Five Paths in Ornament of Clear Realization. Sometimes special methods might masquerade as needing a special view to use the method, but that is only because the introduction to the view is so immediate, don't realize you're in it right away. You think the method is the view until the view is actualized.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby heart » Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:52 pm

Enochian wrote:But anyway since we are talking about vayus and Dzogchen....

On the Bon forum (not here) someone "knowledgeable" stated that before one practices Direct Crossing (Leap Over) one needs to slow down the "karmic winds" for 9 days. This sounded nonsense to me on multiple levels.


No nonsense, it is called abandoning the nine-fold activities, page 69 in Yeshe Lama.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:30 pm

Enochian wrote:No they specifically said you have to do this for the HIGHEST Dzogchen practices.
Enochian, it is high time you got yourself a teacher!
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Enochian » Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:26 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Enochian wrote:No they specifically said you have to do this for the HIGHEST Dzogchen practices.
Enochian, it is high time you got yourself a teacher!
:namaste:



I like to learn about something before being committed. I do not pretend in the slightest to currently be a Vajrayana or Dzogchen practitioner.

There is one major thing that prevents me from seeking a Vajrayana guru. Maybe I should start another thread regarding this. The other issue is taking various vows and so forth. I don't take these lightly.

P.S. I am a buddhist though who takes refuge in the Triple Gems. And I also have a Mahayana aspiration to obtain perfect omniscient Buddhahood as fast as possible so that I may benefit infinite sentient beings. You CAN be a buddhist without being a Vajrayana practitioner right?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby gnegirl » Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:58 pm

Enochian wrote: You CAN be a buddhist without being a Vajrayana practitioner right?


Yes. You can even have Bodhisattva vows and not be on the Vajrayana path.
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:18 pm

What about the unbreakable Ati samayas of absence, openness, presence and singularity? You can be on the Atiyoga path and not have any vows. In fact, active vows to do something is not Atiyoga.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Enochian » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:20 pm

adinatha wrote:What about the unbreakable Ati samayas of absence, openness, presence and singularity? You can be on the Atiyoga path and not have any vows. In fact, active vows to do something is not Atiyoga.


If thats directed to me, I wouldn't know about this since I am not a Dzogchen practitioner.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby gnegirl » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:24 pm

Enochian wrote:
adinatha wrote:What about the unbreakable Ati samayas of absence, openness, presence and singularity? You can be on the Atiyoga path and not have any vows. In fact, active vows to do something is not Atiyoga.


If thats directed to me, I wouldn't know about this since I am not a Dzogchen practitioner.


And if that's directed at me, *shrug*, certain things are not up for discussion w/me. Others feel differently, and do what they see best.
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:35 pm

Enochian wrote:
adinatha wrote:What about the unbreakable Ati samayas of absence, openness, presence and singularity? You can be on the Atiyoga path and not have any vows. In fact, active vows to do something is not Atiyoga.


If thats directed to me, I wouldn't know about this since I am not a Dzogchen practitioner.


A catch 22 is when you can't win. This is a win-win. :crazy:
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Enochian » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:38 pm

adinatha wrote:A catch 22 is when you can't win. This is a win-win. :crazy:



I bet you are so frustrated with me, you want to do this:
:techproblem:

LOL
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:52 pm

Enochian wrote:
adinatha wrote:A catch 22 is when you can't win. This is a win-win. :crazy:



I bet you are so frustrated with me, you want to do this:
:techproblem:

LOL


I sense much hesitation in you padowan. :jedi: I just keep throwing you a rope. As long as you are enjoying the soakiness of the quicksand I'll throw it back out again later. :hi:
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:10 pm

Sigh... Exactly what we need, another do-gooder out to save the world!

Gotta admit, I like the outfit though! :tongue:
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:00 am

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:In Dzogchen, mind and matter exist because of avidya. When there is no more avidyā,for you there is niether mind nor matter.

But to get back to the main point -- for example we talk about "subtle minds". What are subtle minds, what makes them subtle? The reduced frequency of spanda, pulsation, movement of the vāyu in the body. When the vāyu moves, concepts arise -- no movement, no concepts. No concepts, nothing really we can all mind at all. When the vāyu moves very little, then we call that "a subtle mind". Sutra for example, has no methods to reduce the movement of vāyu to such an extent that such "subtle minds" are accessed. In sutra methods, the movements of mind are always coarse -- apart from that fact that as a bodhisattva moves through the paths and stages the physical body they appropriate becomes ever more refined and thus the movement of vāyu becomes ever more subtle and unobstructed, especially after the eighth bhumi. But this is a very external approach, taking a long time.

N


This is mind/subtle mind in the impure sense or in the mind/nature of mind dichotomy.



Mind is always impure, from a Dzogchen point of view, in fact. This is why there are Dzogchen criticisms of the nine yanas.


But the view is all namthog are dharmakaya


If you think concepts are dharmakāya, your practice is screwed before it has even begun.

In Ati these days, conceited elephants [claim]
the mass of discursive concepts is bodhicitta.


chos dbying mdzod



N
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http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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