Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby adinatha » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:34 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:This gets to the crux. They exist as magical illusions. Artificial fictional words are blotched onto these deceptions. This is maya. A deception is not a reality at any level. Where is an illusory thing? Nowhere. Only in citt. What makes this more profound than a description of a method is that it relates to the ultimate teaching which is the yogi's direct experience of reality. Even if you want to say they exist at the conventional level, the conventional level the Buddha is talking about here is how things appear in perceptions. Again, citta, maya. What is the final appearance of Togal? Exhaustion of appearances. Of appearances. Maya yoga. The one vehicle.


I think you must be missing my point -- even in Yogachara, prior to analysis via the three natures, mind and matter are taken as conventionally real. They are also taken as separate and unique. The imputed nature is the triple realm and all external appearances.


Yogacara the lineage of commentators? Okay. I see your point. My point is that they don't see the Buddha's point.

How this relates to rebirth, because pinpointing in the anatomy where rebirth happens is hardly as profound and immediate as the direct experience of rebirth. A yogi doesn't experience a wind.


Maybe your yogis don't.


Touche. Well played, sir. Well played...

Well if you mean movement... hayah!

Anyway, your argument is a little mismatched to what I am talking about. I am not talking about ultimate truth.I am talking about the mechanisms described in Vajrayāna in general for how rebirth actually takes place. That requires, on a conventional level, that mind and matter must be inseparable. Cartesian dualism will not work in this instance.


Actually takes place? PHAT! I'm saying there are no two truths. Conventional level is not a truth level, but a totally screwed up level. Nothing actually takes place in the totally screwed up fantasy dream, except for mistakes.

You are reducing all of this to a sūtrayāna tenet system e.g. yogachara.


Is that what Longchenpa does in his Ati explanations of the Buddha's maya analogies that appear in all three vehicles? I'm talking about a yogi's cara. I care nothing for a "sūtrayāna tenet system e.g. yogachara."

I don't happen to think Yogachara is very useful for understanding Dzogchen. That is my opinion.

N


Atiyoga is nonpractice. It is automatic. In the sense that a yogacara involves action, conceptual analysis, internal examination, the act of nongrasping, there is wind. Atiyogacara is the cara of spontaneous luminosity. Yogacara the Shastra tradition, I agree with you; I see no use. But when the Buddha describes yogacara and when pinheads describe yogacara I see two different yogacaras.
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby adinatha » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:38 pm

Enochian wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Enochian wrote:Adinatha,

Aren't you just saying something that is in every book by the Dalai Lama?

That there is a discrepency between every thoughtform and reality.


Actually I don't read much Dalai Lama. Again this is description. The Ati guru's pointing out direct perception is beyond explanations, and the samadhi is involuntary, without effort or examination.



LOL you should read the Dalai Lama, because he says what you are saying in a much more succinct way.

That there are discrepancies between thoughtforms ("appearances") and reality.


To His Holiness the Dalai Lama I say, congratulations. He is a good speaker. What is the discrepancy precisely in own experience?

This is not a game of precise descriptions. It is a game of a swift kick to the nuts.
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Enochian » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:40 pm

adinatha wrote:
To His Holiness the Dalai Lama I say, congratulations. He is a good speaker. What is the discrepancy precisely in own experience?



You don't describe the discrepancy or say much more on it.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:43 pm

adinatha wrote:
Actually takes place? PHAT! I'm saying there are no two truths. Conventional level is not a truth level, but a totally screwed up level. Nothing actually takes place in the totally screwed up fantasy dream, except for mistakes.



If you suffer from delusion, then you are still beholden to the two truths. It is inescapable.



You are reducing all of this to a sūtrayāna tenet system e.g. yogachara.


Is that what Longchenpa does in his Ati explanations of the Buddha's maya analogies that appear in all three vehicles? I'm talking about a yogi's cara. I care nothing for a "sūtrayāna tenet system e.g. yogachara."


There is a very big difference between how Dzogchen deals with illusion and the lower vehicles. Nevertheless, call it illusion or call it "relative truth" that is still the plane upon which rebirth occurs. This is why your elevation of this discussion to such heights misses the mark.


Atiyoga is nonpractice. It is automatic...Atiyogacara is the cara of spontaneous luminosity.


As I said to the other guy -- these are nice slogans. But I don't know if you really understand what they mean.

N
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby adinatha » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:43 pm

Enochian wrote:
adinatha wrote:
To His Holiness the Dalai Lama I say, congratulations. He is a good speaker. What is the discrepancy precisely in own experience?



You don't describe the discrepancy or say much more on it.


That's not saying what it is. Maya is what it is. Longchenpa says so.
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby adinatha » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:49 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Actually takes place? PHAT! I'm saying there are no two truths. Conventional level is not a truth level, but a totally screwed up level. Nothing actually takes place in the totally screwed up fantasy dream, except for mistakes.



If you suffer from delusion, then you are still beholden to the two truths. It is inescapable.


The two lies.

You are reducing all of this to a sūtrayāna tenet system e.g. yogachara.


Is that what Longchenpa does in his Ati explanations of the Buddha's maya analogies that appear in all three vehicles? I'm talking about a yogi's cara. I care nothing for a "sūtrayāna tenet system e.g. yogachara."


There is a very big difference between how Dzogchen deals with illusion and the lower vehicles. Nevertheless, call it illusion or call it "relative truth" that is still the plane upon which rebirth occurs. This is why your elevation of this discussion to such heights misses the mark.


Well if you say so. I say it's the mark.


Atiyoga is nonpractice. It is automatic...Atiyogacara is the cara of spontaneous luminosity.


As I said to the other guy -- these are nice slogans. But I don't know if you really understand what they mean.

N


Hey guy. Who made you judge? That's between me and my guru. Understanding stands under ununderstanding.
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Enochian » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:52 pm

adinatha wrote:Hey guy. Who made you judge? That's between me and my guru. Understanding stands under ununderstanding.



Namdrol wasn't judging you.

His point was that it is pointless to use EXPERIENTIAL Dzogchen arguments on an internet discussion forum.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby adinatha » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:57 pm

Enochian wrote:
adinatha wrote:Hey guy. Who made you judge? That's between me and my guru. Understanding stands under ununderstanding.



Namdrol wasn't judging you.

His point was that it is pointless to use EXPERIENTIAL Dzogchen arguments on an internet discussion forum.

First off :hug:

But experience is all that matters. Poor discussion forums. :tantrum:

There is a description level that is a direct introduction to the experience level, where the two are inseparable.
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:00 pm

adinatha wrote:
Well if you say so. I say it's the mark.



There is no rebirth in reality -- this is why your addition misses the mark of the conversation.

The two truths are not for buddhas, incidentally, they are for sentient beings.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:01 pm

adinatha wrote:
Enochian wrote:
adinatha wrote:Hey guy. Who made you judge? That's between me and my guru. Understanding stands under ununderstanding.



Namdrol wasn't judging you.

His point was that it is pointless to use EXPERIENTIAL Dzogchen arguments on an internet discussion forum.

First off :hug:

But experience is all that matters. Poor discussion forums. :tantrum:



You cannot convey experience on a discussion board. It just does not work. Anyway, you can say anything you like, quote it right out of a hundred texts -- that is all just words.

Ok.. back to the discussion.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Sherab » Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:05 am

Thought I throw this into the discussion:
Nagarjuna seemed to be saying that mind and matter are inseparable even conventionally, no? Or was he speaking from an ultimate point of view?

gzung dang 'dzin pa'i ngo bo yis
rnam shes snang ba gang yin pa
rnam shes las ni tha dad par
phyi rol don ni 'ga' yang med

As to the appearance of consciousness under the form of subject and object, [one must realize] that there exists no external object apart from consciousness.

de phyir dngos po'i ngo bor ni
phyi don rnam pa kun tu med
rnam shes so sor snang ba 'di
gzugs kyi rnam par snang bar 'gyur

In no way at all is there an external thing in the mode of an entity. This particular appearance of consciousness appears under the aspect of form.

ji ltar skye bo sems rmongs pas
sgyu ma smig rgyu dri za yi
grong khyer la sogs mthong ba ltar
de bzhin gzugs sogs snang ba yin

The deluded see illusions, mirages, cities of gandharvas, and so forth. Form manifests in the same way.

bdag tu 'dzin pa bzlog pa'i phyir
phung po khams sogs bstan pa yin
sems tsam po la gnas nas ni
skal chen rnams kyis de yang spangs

The purpose of the [Buddha's] teachings about the skandhas, elements, and so forth is [merely] to dispel the belief in a self. By establishing [themselves] in pure consciousness the greatly blessed [Bodhisattvas] abandon that as well.

Nagarjuna's Bodhicittavarana, verses 22-25
"Master of Wisdom", Lindtner
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:24 pm

Sherab wrote:Thought I throw this into the discussion:
Nagarjuna seemed to be saying that mind and matter are inseparable even conventionally, no? Or was he speaking from an ultimate point of view?

gzung dang 'dzin pa'i ngo bo yis
rnam shes snang ba gang yin pa
rnam shes las ni tha dad par
phyi rol don ni 'ga' yang med

As to the appearance of consciousness under the form of subject and object, [one must realize] that there exists no external object apart from consciousness.

de phyir dngos po'i ngo bor ni
phyi don rnam pa kun tu med
rnam shes so sor snang ba 'di
gzugs kyi rnam par snang bar 'gyur

In no way at all is there an external thing in the mode of an entity. This particular appearance of consciousness appears under the aspect of form.

ji ltar skye bo sems rmongs pas
sgyu ma smig rgyu dri za yi
grong khyer la sogs mthong ba ltar
de bzhin gzugs sogs snang ba yin

The deluded see illusions, mirages, cities of gandharvas, and so forth. Form manifests in the same way.

bdag tu 'dzin pa bzlog pa'i phyir
phung po khams sogs bstan pa yin
sems tsam po la gnas nas ni
skal chen rnams kyis de yang spangs

The purpose of the [Buddha's] teachings about the skandhas, elements, and so forth is [merely] to dispel the belief in a self. By establishing [themselves] in pure consciousness the greatly blessed [Bodhisattvas] abandon that as well.

Nagarjuna's Bodhicittavarana, verses 22-25
"Master of Wisdom", Lindtner


One, this Nāgārjuna is not the Nāgārjuna that wrote the collection of reasonings. According to tradition, the Bodhicittavivarana is a commentary on the Guhyasamaja. This text is quite late. Likely by the same Nāgārjuna that wrote the Pañcakrama.

The view here is Yogachara Madhyamaka, similar to Shantarakshita.

"Pure consciousness" is not a good rendering for sems tsam po (cittamatra) -- i.e. mere mind.

The normative Madhyamaka view re: consciousness would be that a consciousness arises conventionally only if there is an object and an organ meeting. Hence, conventionally speaking, normative Madhyamaka allows for the existence of external phenomena.

So does Dzogchen.

Citta-matra is a method, not a view, in this respect. The view is still madhyamaka.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:36 pm

Namdrol wrote:One, this Nāgārjuna is not the Nāgārjuna that wrote the collection of reasonings. According to tradition, the Bodhicittavivarana is a commentary on the Guhyasamaja. This text is quite late. Likely by the same Nāgārjuna that wrote the Pañcakrama.


And this is not mere speculation, because...?
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby adinatha » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:22 pm

Namdrol wrote:In Dzogchen, mind and matter are regarded as seamlessly welded, not that mind has primacy over matter. Dzogchen texts even go so far as to reject the formless realm as truly formless.

This is why for example the Khandro Nyinthig states very clearly "Sometimes we say "citta", sometimes "vāyu",but the meaning is the same."Vāyu is just the element of air i.e. motility present in matter. This also accounts for rebirth. In the Guhyasamaja, for example, the ālayavijñāna is wedded to the mahāprāṇavāyu -- this union allows rebirth to happen.

Mind and matter are inseparable from a tantric point of view. Your view reduces the tantric view of mind and matter to the level of sūtra, in my opinion. I take the unpopular stance (according to standard Tibetan orthodoxy ala Sapan, et al) that the view of tantra regarding these kinds of issues is superior in every respect to that of sūtra, and Dzogchen even more so than tantra. The view and practice of tantra and Dzogchen has been crippled in Tibetan discourse by a need to justify everything according to sūtra.

N


This is a method wisdom thing. Sometimes we say "citta" and sometimes we say "vayu" is saying that wind and mind is wind-mind. So the motility of air is the motility of consciousness. Inseparability and unity is a distinction without a difference. For example in rigpa the empty quality, the clarity quality and the energy qualities can be looked at separately, like looking separately at the facets of a gem, but their inseparability means unity, one rigpa. It is often said rigpa has many faces, but all those faces are on one head. So this is a method wisdom thing, because a view like this doesn't mean anything useful unless it is to get a yogi to see something important in samadhi. Your worry about Dzogchen being crippled by sutra must be coming from a standpoint that a method involving channels and winds is depreciated when yogis have an ecumenical view. I'm curious why you think this when the method of Togal depends on direct introduction (and devotion), postures and gazes, and knowledge of channels and winds is really just for the sake of background information to explain why Togal works better than a volitional sadhana involving channels and winds, like tummo. What Togal does par excellence is highlight tsal aspect of rigpa, but that's a highlight, the overall light is rigpa complete. There is also realization that is rigpa everywhere including as mountains, rocks, trees and houses. Maya. One can either be non-abiding and take a form body or dissolve into dharmata. Finally, everything exhausts into dharmata which is not non-existence. If it is not non-existence, well?...
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby adinatha » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:48 pm

Namdrol wrote:If you don't mind my asking, who is your teacher?


I went to answer this yesterday, but then the thread was frozen. I took it as a sign. I do have teachers and retreat, but I'm thinking it's better to keep it mum for now. I didn't want you to think I was avoiding this question.
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby adinatha » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:54 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Yogacara, sutras and tantras share the same view, that matter and consciousness are one thing, mind.


This may be true of sngags gsar ma, and certainly this is how Khyentse Wangchuck seeks to the resolve the issue (unsatisfactorily in my mind) in his commentary on the view of the inseparability of samsara and nirvana.


The one vehicle approach is very prevalent in Jigten Sumgon's Gongchig. Kagyu people herald this work as representative of all Kagyu lineages.
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:09 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:In Dzogchen, mind and matter are regarded as seamlessly welded, not that mind has primacy over matter. Dzogchen texts even go so far as to reject the formless realm as truly formless.

This is why for example the Khandro Nyinthig states very clearly "Sometimes we say "citta", sometimes "vāyu",but the meaning is the same."Vāyu is just the element of air i.e. motility present in matter. This also accounts for rebirth. In the Guhyasamaja, for example, the ālayavijñāna is wedded to the mahāprāṇavāyu -- this union allows rebirth to happen.

Mind and matter are inseparable from a tantric point of view. Your view reduces the tantric view of mind and matter to the level of sūtra, in my opinion. I take the unpopular stance (according to standard Tibetan orthodoxy ala Sapan, et al) that the view of tantra regarding these kinds of issues is superior in every respect to that of sūtra, and Dzogchen even more so than tantra. The view and practice of tantra and Dzogchen has been crippled in Tibetan discourse by a need to justify everything according to sūtra.

N


This is a method wisdom thing. Sometimes we say "citta" and sometimes we say "vayu" is saying that wind and mind is wind-mind. So the motility of air is the motility of consciousness. Inseparability and unity is a distinction without a difference. For example in rigpa the empty quality, the clarity quality and the energy qualities can be looked at separately, like looking separately at the facets of a gem, but their inseparability means unity, one rigpa. It is often said rigpa has many faces, but all those faces are on one head. So this is a method wisdom thing, because a view like this doesn't mean anything useful unless it is to get a yogi to see something important in samadhi. Your worry about Dzogchen being crippled by sutra must be coming from a standpoint that a method involving channels and winds is depreciated when yogis have an ecumenical view. I'm curious why you think this when the method of Togal depends on direct introduction (and devotion), postures and gazes, and knowledge of channels and winds is really just for the sake of background information to explain why Togal works better than a volitional sadhana involving channels and winds, like tummo. What Togal does par excellence is highlight tsal aspect of rigpa, but that's a highlight, the overall light is rigpa complete. There is also realization that is rigpa everywhere including as mountains, rocks, trees and houses. Maya. One can either be non-abiding and take a form body or dissolve into dharmata. Finally, everything exhausts into dharmata which is not non-existence. If it is not non-existence, well?...


In Dzogchen, mind and matter exist because of avidya. When there is no more avidyā,for you there is niether mind nor matter.

But to get back to the main point -- for example we talk about "subtle minds". What are subtle minds, what makes them subtle? The reduced frequency of spanda, pulsation, movement of the vāyu in the body. When the vāyu moves, concepts arise -- no movement, no concepts. No concepts, nothing really we can all mind at all. When the vāyu moves very little, then we call that "a subtle mind". Sutra for example, has no methods to reduce the movement of vāyu to such an extent that such "subtle minds" are accessed. In sutra methods, the movements of mind are always coarse -- apart from that fact that as a bodhisattva moves through the paths and stages the physical body they appropriate becomes ever more refined and thus the movement of vāyu becomes ever more subtle and unobstructed, especially after the eighth bhumi. But this is a very external approach, taking a long time.

N
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there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:10 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:If you don't mind my asking, who is your teacher?


I went to answer this yesterday, but then the thread was frozen. I took it as a sign. I do have teachers and retreat, but I'm thinking it's better to keep it mum for now. I didn't want you to think I was avoiding this question.


That's nonsense.

It is good to know who one is talking to.

Internet anonymity is bullshit in Buddhist forums.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:13 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Yogacara, sutras and tantras share the same view, that matter and consciousness are one thing, mind.


This may be true of sngags gsar ma, and certainly this is how Khyentse Wangchuck seeks to the resolve the issue (unsatisfactorily in my mind) in his commentary on the view of the inseparability of samsara and nirvana.


The one vehicle approach is very prevalent in Jigten Sumgon's Gongchig. Kagyu people herald this work as representative of all Kagyu lineages.


The one vehicle view does not imply that all yanas have the same intention.

The one vehicle approach is just a kind of Mahāyāna triumphalism that asserts the ultimate goal of all buddhist paths is true perfect full awakening as conceived in Mahāyāna.

Also Sakya heralds the ekayāna, but this does not mean, for example, that hinayāna vows have the same intention as Mahāyāna vows and so on and so forth. I understand that Drikungpa may feel differently about this.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby adinatha » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:47 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:If you don't mind my asking, who is your teacher?


I went to answer this yesterday, but then the thread was frozen. I took it as a sign. I do have teachers and retreat, but I'm thinking it's better to keep it mum for now. I didn't want you to think I was avoiding this question.


That's nonsense.

It is good to know who one is talking to.

Internet anonymity is bullshit in Buddhist forums.


His Holiness Drikung Chetsang Rinpoche, His Holiness Taklung Matul Rinpoche, His Eminence Garchen Rinpoche, Gelong Yeshe Rinpoche, Drubpon Gonpo Dorje Rinpoche (primary), Drubpon Rinchen Dorje

Yogini Changchub Palmo, Lama Tony Duff, Choegyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche (never met), Kunsang Dechen Lingpa (never met), Traga Rinpoche (never met)

In the most heartfelt way, I consider the guardian Ekajati to be a teacher to me. My first childhood memory is of her appearing to me in a dream. She has appeared to me infrequently since, but her hand in my life is unmistakable to me. Before I met any teachers in this life I stumbled upon the Guru Padma's mantra somehow, recited it and received blessings. In pure visions, I have met Avalokiteshvara, Milarepa and Achi and received complete teachings.

The teachers whom I never met I got the webcasts or dvds and a tremendous number of hours of teachings this way on Dzogchen. I cleared up my misunderstandings about Dzogchen with Yogini Changchub Palmo and Lama Tony Duff.

The guru yoga these teachers have encouraged me to practice is inseparability of guru and luminosity in naturalness. This is because, I have a hard time deciding who is my root lama between Drubpon Gonpo Dorje Rinpoche, HH Drikung Chetsang Rinpoche, Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche and the general blessings I get from vidyadharas when I think of them. All of these are my root gurus, but no one is "the one" who definitely showed me the nature of my mind. But I will do lama chopa of Jigten Sumgon, or a less elaborate/more profound guru yoga from his "Co-Emergent Unification" text. I will practice Tigle Gyachen, Guru Yoga of White A, contemplation of four samaya of Dzogchen together with syllable A as guru. My focus is on luminosity.

You could say my practice is sahaja mahamudra/tregcho and togal. It is also be just maya yoga a la Longchenpa in his Treasuries of Dharmadhatu and Abiding.

Anything else?
CAW!
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