Namdrol wrote:adinatha wrote:This gets to the crux. They exist as magical illusions. Artificial fictional words are blotched onto these deceptions. This is maya. A deception is not a reality at any level. Where is an illusory thing? Nowhere. Only in citt. What makes this more profound than a description of a method is that it relates to the ultimate teaching which is the yogi's direct experience of reality. Even if you want to say they exist at the conventional level, the conventional level the Buddha is talking about here is how things appear in perceptions. Again, citta, maya. What is the final appearance of Togal? Exhaustion of appearances. Of appearances. Maya yoga. The one vehicle.
I think you must be missing my point -- even in Yogachara, prior to analysis via the three natures, mind and matter are taken as conventionally real. They are also taken as separate and unique. The imputed nature is the triple realm and all external appearances.
Yogacara the lineage of commentators? Okay. I see your point. My point is that they don't see the Buddha's point.
How this relates to rebirth, because pinpointing in the anatomy where rebirth happens is hardly as profound and immediate as the direct experience of rebirth. A yogi doesn't experience a wind.
Maybe your yogis don't.
Touche. Well played, sir. Well played...
Well if you mean movement... hayah!
Anyway, your argument is a little mismatched to what I am talking about. I am not talking about ultimate truth.I am talking about the mechanisms described in Vajrayāna in general for how rebirth actually takes place. That requires, on a conventional level, that mind and matter must be inseparable. Cartesian dualism will not work in this instance.
Actually takes place? PHAT! I'm saying there are no two truths. Conventional level is not a truth level, but a totally screwed up level. Nothing actually takes place in the totally screwed up fantasy dream, except for mistakes.
You are reducing all of this to a sūtrayāna tenet system e.g. yogachara.
Is that what Longchenpa does in his Ati explanations of the Buddha's maya analogies that appear in all three vehicles? I'm talking about a yogi's cara. I care nothing for a "sūtrayāna tenet system e.g. yogachara."
I don't happen to think Yogachara is very useful for understanding Dzogchen. That is my opinion.
Atiyoga is nonpractice. It is automatic. In the sense that a yogacara involves action, conceptual analysis, internal examination, the act of nongrasping, there is wind. Atiyogacara is the cara of spontaneous luminosity. Yogacara the Shastra tradition, I agree with you; I see no use. But when the Buddha describes yogacara and when pinheads describe yogacara I see two different yogacaras.