Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:49 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Depends on the practitioner. Depends on what they feel they need to do. The only thing that is absolutely essential is guru yoga followed by song of the vajra.

N


That is ChNN talking. Jim Valby told me the Song of Vajra is his terma tradition. I took this to mean Song of Vajra is not indispensable, because there are so many guru yoga methods. Whether you sing a song, visualize a picture or hum a mantra, you are doing something to get into not doing something. What that doing something is, is blessings.



What I meant was guru yoga is indispensable. After that, Song of the vajra is indispensable. But one cannot just sing song of the vajra out loud anywhere. it would be strange. Of course, you can mentally sing it everywhere.

Song of the vajra is not just ChNN's terma tradition. It is very important. Key in Dzogchen teachings. I cannot emphasize how much how important it is.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:50 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Namdrol wrote:If you would like to believe that whatever it is in Greek Orthodoxy you are calling "rainbow body" is absolutely equivalent with achieving complete Buddhahood, that's up to you. I don't buy it.
You don't believe that a serious [insert religious label of choice] ascetic practitioner can achieve the state of a pratyekabuddha (for example)? Or maybe that some teachings may have leaked (snuck) into other religious traditions? Or maybe [insert religious label of choice] practitioners do not possess the tathagatagarbha?
:namaste:



Prayetkabuddhas do not achieve rainbow body.

And no, I don't believe that Dzogchen leaked into any tradition other than Bon.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:53 pm

Namdrol wrote:What I meant was guru yoga is indispensable. After that, Song of the vajra is indispensable. But one cannot just sing song of the vajra out loud anywhere. it would be strange. Of course, you can mentally sing it everywhere.


Well I didn't mean sing it anywhere. In one's sadhana.

Song of the vajra is not just ChNN's terma tradition. It is very important. Key in Dzogchen teachings. I cannot emphasize how much how important it is.


The one in the Tun book differs from the one in the Tantra of Union of Sun and Moon dramatically. I asked Jim Valby about this. He told me the version in the Tun Book came from ChNN's dream.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:59 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:What I meant was guru yoga is indispensable. After that, Song of the vajra is indispensable. But one cannot just sing song of the vajra out loud anywhere. it would be strange. Of course, you can mentally sing it everywhere.


Well I didn't mean sing it anywhere. In one's sadhana.

Song of the vajra is not just ChNN's terma tradition. It is very important. Key in Dzogchen teachings. I cannot emphasize how much how important it is.


The one in the Tun book differs from the one in the Tantra of Union of Sun and Moon. I asked Jim Valby about this. He told me the version in the Tun Book came from ChNN's dream.


That is correct, there are many different versions of the Song of the Vajra, in many different termas. They all share basic characteristics, however.

The one ChNN uses is more or less identical to the version Longchenpa presents in the Theg mchog mdzod apart from one or two syllables, differences that can be accounted for through scribal transcription errors from umed to uchen when the original blocs were prepared.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:01 pm

Also Kunzang Dechen Lingpa said he couldn't find a teacher so he sat outside some monastery and prayed like mad to Guru Rinpoche, then he appeared to him. How is this not teacher?
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:03 pm

adinatha wrote:In one's sadhana.


One can sing the Dzogchen song of the vajra, any version one has transmission for, whenever one likes to identical effect.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:03 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:What I meant was guru yoga is indispensable. After that, Song of the vajra is indispensable. But one cannot just sing song of the vajra out loud anywhere. it would be strange. Of course, you can mentally sing it everywhere.


Well I didn't mean sing it anywhere. In one's sadhana.

Song of the vajra is not just ChNN's terma tradition. It is very important. Key in Dzogchen teachings. I cannot emphasize how much how important it is.


The one in the Tun book differs from the one in the Tantra of Union of Sun and Moon. I asked Jim Valby about this. He told me the version in the Tun Book came from ChNN's dream.


That is correct, there are many different versions of the Song of the Vajra, in many different termas. They all share basic characteristics, however.

The one ChNN uses is more or less identical to the version Longchenpa presents in the Theg mchog mdzod apart from one or two syllables, differences that can be accounted for through scribal transcription errors from umed to uchen when the original blocs were prepared.


That's good to know. So why is 10 minutes of a Song of Vajra better than 10 minutes of some other Atiyoga guru yoga mantra and visualization? And then how is that better than just resting in rigpa?
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:05 pm

adinatha wrote:Also Kunzang Dechen Lingpa said he couldn't find a teacher so he sat outside some monastery and prayed like mad to Guru Rinpoche, then he appeared to him. How is this not teacher?


I am a very close disciple of KDL, one of his main US students. So, I will explain. He told me that he had received the Nyingthig Yazhi the first time when he was five.

He had transmission already.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:07 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:Also Kunzang Dechen Lingpa said he couldn't find a teacher so he sat outside some monastery and prayed like mad to Guru Rinpoche, then he appeared to him. How is this not teacher?


I am a very close disciple of KDL, one of his main US students. So, I will explain. He told me that he had received the Nyingthig Yazhi the first time when he was five.

He had transmission already.


I see so because of this he was later able to pray to Guru Rinpoche and have him appear?
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:11 pm

adinatha wrote:
That's good to know. So why is 10 minutes of a Song of Vajra better than 10 minutes of some other Atiyoga guru yoga mantra and visualization? And then how is that better than just resting in rigpa?


Because the song of the vajra has another name "The primordial state of Samantabhadra".

When relying on a non-conceptual continuum,
at this time one should sing...
If concentration is not occurring for someone,
with this it occurs naturally...
When a yogin has lethargy,
when revived with this, samadhi is excellent...
Therefore, sing the song of the vajra.

-- Tantra of the Union of the Sun and Moon.

Song of the Vajra is ChNN's main practice.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:17 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:Also Kunzang Dechen Lingpa said he couldn't find a teacher so he sat outside some monastery and prayed like mad to Guru Rinpoche, then he appeared to him. How is this not teacher?


I am a very close disciple of KDL, one of his main US students. So, I will explain. He told me that he had received the Nyingthig Yazhi the first time when he was five.

He had transmission already.


I see so because of this he was later able to pray to Guru Rinpoche and have him appear?


KDL was a terton, so of course it is not unusual for tertons to have many experiences of visions of Guru Rinpoche even at quite a young age.

Nevertheless, it was not until he met his own root Guru, Dudjom Rinpoche, that his capacity to reveal termas was opened in this lifetime. Had he met the right consort, he would have had many earth termas, but there was an obstacle and so it did not happen. Nevertheless, he had many dgongs gter.

Having visions of Guru Rinpoche, as KDL did throughout his life, does not necessarily mean one is receiving teachings. However, KDL told me that he could communicate directly with Guru R. Of course, KDL was someone who had reached the complete end of the Dzogchen path. So this should not come as a surprise.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:52 pm

Namdrol wrote:KDL was a terton, so of course it is not unusual for tertons to have many experiences of visions of Guru Rinpoche even at quite a young age.

Nevertheless, it was not until he met his own root Guru, Dudjom Rinpoche, that his capacity to reveal termas was opened in this lifetime. Had he met the right consort, he would have had many earth termas, but there was an obstacle and so it did not happen. Nevertheless, he had many dgongs gter.

Having visions of Guru Rinpoche, as KDL did throughout his life, does not necessarily mean one is receiving teachings. However, KDL told me that he could communicate directly with Guru R. Of course, KDL was someone who had reached the complete end of the Dzogchen path. So this should not come as a surprise.


There must be a past life connection somewhere.
Last edited by adinatha on Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Mr. G » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:30 pm

adinatha,

Are you so sure you should be relating such personal experiences in a public forum?
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:40 pm

My thoughts exactly! You never know who is "listening" and what their intentions may be.
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"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:03 pm

mr. gordo wrote:adinatha,

Are you so sure you should be relating such personal experiences in a public forum?


It's a done deal. Besides what's the downside? I'm interested in what Namdrol has to say about this. I have no idea how to interpret what's happened other than it has, and I'm rollin on.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:04 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:My thoughts exactly! You never know who is "listening" and what their intentions may be.
:namaste:


I have no idea what this implies. :shrug:
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Mr. G » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:12 pm

adinatha wrote:
It's a done deal.


You can delete the post if you feel like it.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:12 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:KDL was a terton, so of course it is not unusual for tertons to have many experiences of visions of Guru Rinpoche even at quite a young age.

Nevertheless, it was not until he met his own root Guru, Dudjom Rinpoche, that his capacity to reveal termas was opened in this lifetime. Had he met the right consort, he would have had many earth termas, but there was an obstacle and so it did not happen. Nevertheless, he had many dgongs gter.

Having visions of Guru Rinpoche, as KDL did throughout his life, does not necessarily mean one is receiving teachings. However, KDL told me that he could communicate directly with Guru R. Of course, KDL was someone who had reached the complete end of the Dzogchen path. So this should not come as a surprise.


I've had five clear visions beginning with my first memory. I have always had a nonstop fascination with crazy yogi sadhus and an aspiration to be one. Before I met any Dzogchen teachers I found the Seven Line Prayer and instantly started reciting it and felt intense natural rigpa blaze. Friends like Tony Duff helped me out with texts and deepened my experience. Yogini Changchub Palmo, student of Chatral Rinpoche, gave me a lot of affirmation. Over the years I've spent thousands of hours on listening and re-listening to ChNN. I've wondered if that Ati master is coming or what? Then, I'm also the "heart-son" to a Drikung lama, and that makes the situation weirder. Then I practice Dzogchen dedicatedly. I can't help it. I had a clear dream recently after practicing Togal similar to one KDL describes with a message from Ekajati. I received Tigle Gyachen without a reading transmission and definitely powerful blessings and I started to see signs in my dreams too. I'm puzzled by this. I feel Ekajati is throwing me blessings. The only connection I can make is that my family lineage ancestral homeland is the area that would now be considered Swat and all that surrounds it. My family heritage is that we were the kings of the land. The Puru. The Puru are the oldest living family lineage on the planet. It goes back 5000 years so I don't know. There's actually a Wikipedia article about it. I have no idea who wrote it. I know from family we have an intensely spiritual history, that includes Hindus, Buddhists and Sikhs. There must be a past life connection somewhere. I want you to know that for me Ekajati is a teacher; at least I feel it if I'm doing something wrong by Ati. I physically will feel sick. It's like a barometer. What I'm saying here is from my heart of hearts. No bullshit. That's where I'm at. I'm gauging.


You have a lot of karmic connection with Dzogchen. But you can screw it up in three ways: not protecting your samaya, not practicing in a careful and precise way, and giving too much weight to conceptual experiences.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:18 pm

mr. gordo wrote:
adinatha wrote:
It's a done deal.


You can delete the post if you feel like it.



how?
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Mr. G » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:20 pm

adinatha wrote:[


how?


Click "edit" in the right hand corner of your post - then you can edit/delete, etc.
    How foolish you are,
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