Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

[adinatha]

Adinatha talks a LOT about guru yoga, but is he aware than in Dzogchen that guru yoga is nothing other than abiding in the natural state?

Maybe Namdrol can verify.

A lot of people misunderstand the symbolism of the A in the thigle at the heart (Dzogchen guru yoga).

I am sure he has some idea since he has attended webcasts. He probably also knows that in the community, Norbu Rinpoche never stresses devotion as the key point of guru yoga, rather he stresses knowledge as the key point of guru yoga.

N

There is the path of inference, the path of blessings and the path of direct knowledge which is the ultimate guru. You have to get direct introduction to guru state somehow is all I'm saying. I have said here plenty of times ultimate guru is knowledge. For those who perhaps don't have Namkhai Norbu there is a recourse. There's always a recourse. Nyingma masters have this special samaya, say the mantra and bam guru. Whether your guru state arrives from blessings or from pointing out or Semzin, guru is guru. Besides, what do you think ChNNR places all those mantras and visualizations in the Tun book? It's not just busy work. Blessings and direct knowledge are mutually supportive.

[adinatha]

If you hear ChNN talk you can easily get this idea too. He talks about how he reads the Bible and understands the Trinity to be Dzogchen, and the one God to be Unity.

From the point of view of someone who understands the real meaning of Dzogchen, everything looks like Dzogchen, even nursery rhymes.

But this does not mean that the Bible contains some profound insight in Dzogchen.

In this case it is a question of what kind of glasses you have on. If you are wearing Dzogchen glasses everything can seem like Dzogchen.

But it is funny, ChNN occasionally says things like this, and IMO, immediately people completely misunderstand the meaning he is trying to convey.

He certainly does not mean that there are secret Dzogchen practitioners in the Catholic or Lutheran Church from time immemorial.

He is not a "John Reynolds" style "Jesus got Rainbow Body" type.

What you are saying here seems obvious.

[Malcolm]

What you are saying here seems obvious.

Obvious to some, but you would be amazed.

[Enochian]

Maybe Namdrol can also verify that abiding in the natural state satisfies any samaya requirements from previous gurus to do "guru yoga."

[gregkavarnos]

He is not a "John Reynolds" style "Jesus got Rainbow Body" type.

There are rainbow body practices in the Eastern Orthodox church and a number of accounts of ascetics achieving the rainbow body, so...

[adinatha]

I have profound respect and devotion to Longchenpa and the Dzogchen lineages...but I will say that the Blessing of the Guru is essential, mere reading of texts may benefit, or it may just create misunderstanding. But even if there is benefit, I don't believe mere reading of even such a profound text as the "Way of Abiding," for instance, is equivalent to "NgoTro" by qualified teacher, to qualified student.

No doubt about it. Live teacher is indispensible. Sometimes a no teacher faulty practice blooms into a master in your face before you can blink your eyes.

Mostly, one cannot talk about experience in a way that communicates effectively--talk from such as us is merely wind--mind does ride upon wind, or is even equivalent to it, but wind/mind is not Rigpa.

Really because hearing, studying and contemplating are the three mutually self-reinforcing ways to practice dharma. In Ati especially, I feel this is key. And here we are sangha. This ain't Showtime.

[Malcolm]

Besides, what do you think ChNNR places all those mantras and visualizations in the Tun book?

Because sometimes, when people have more time and leisure, they can do a more elaborate secondary practice.

[Malcolm]

He is not a "John Reynolds" style "Jesus got Rainbow Body" type.

There are rainbow body practices in the Eastern Orthodox church and a number of accounts of ascetics achieving the rainbow body, so...

I don't think so. Rainbow body in Dzogchen is something very precise, connected with the teachings. No teachings, no rainbow body from a Dzogchen POV.

[adinatha]

He is not a "John Reynolds" style "Jesus got Rainbow Body" type.

There are rainbow body practices in the Eastern Orthodox church and a number of accounts of ascetics achieving the rainbow body, so...

So... Praise Jesus?

Gurdjieff was aware this lore but didn't think it was the genuine article so he went on a hunt to Central Asia. That's just based on what I read and a movie I watched about his life.

[adinatha]

Besides, what do you think ChNNR places all those mantras and visualizations in the Tun book?

Because sometimes, when people have more time and leisure, they can do a more elaborate secondary practice.

What for? If you have knowledge and are in guru state, why bother?

[Malcolm]

No doubt about it. Live teacher is indispensible. Sometimes a no teacher faulty practice blooms into a master in your face before you can blink your eyes.

No teacher, no practice of Dzogchen. Period.

Really because hearing, studying and contemplating are the three mutually self-reinforcing ways to practice dharma. In Ati especially, I feel this is key. And here we are sangha. This ain't Showtime.

Generally speaking, AFAIC, people should not discuss Dzogchen too much in places like this.

N

[gregkavarnos]

He is not a "John Reynolds" style "Jesus got Rainbow Body" type.

There are rainbow body practices in the Eastern Orthodox church and a number of accounts of ascetics achieving the rainbow body, so...

I don't think so. Rainbow body in Dzogchen is something very precise, connected with the teachings. No teachings, no rainbow body from a Dzogchen POV.

I'm sure the Christians will give you the same answer but merely substitute the word Christian Orthodox(y) for the word Dzogchen.

So... Praise Jesus?

So live and let live (or at least climb down off ones (not a specific "ones", a general "ones") high horse)

[Malcolm]

Besides, what do you think ChNNR places all those mantras and visualizations in the Tun book?

Because sometimes, when people have more time and leisure, they can do a more elaborate secondary practice.

What for? If you have knowledge and are in guru state, why bother?

Depends on the practitioner. Depends on what they feel they need to do. The only thing that is absolutely essential is guru yoga followed by song of the vajra.

N

[Mr. G]

So?... Look. Atiyoga lesson 1: Suspend concepts. Lesson 2: Don't pick em up. Lesson 3: Bam!

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The way you explain this, it is found in tantra too. Dzogchen discussions need to be more precise. If it is a more profound view, either greater care needs to be used when explaining Dzogchen, or if that is not possible, then it is wholly impossible and the meaning is dependent upon the capacity of the person that it is being explained to.

[adinatha]

No teacher, no practice of Dzogchen. Period.

What you don't believe in divine revelation? Where's the sense of open-minded freedom?

Generally speaking, AFAIC, people should not discuss Dzogchen too much in places like this.

N

You certainly do put up a fight.

[Malcolm]

I'm sure the Christians will give you the same answer but merely substitute the word Christian Orthodox(y) for the word Dzogchen.

If you would like to believe that whatever it is in Greek Orthodoxy you are calling "rainbow body" is absolutely equivalent with achieving complete Buddhahood, that's up to you. I don't buy it.

[Malcolm]

No teacher, no practice of Dzogchen. Period.

What you don't believe in divine revelation?

No.

[adinatha]

Depends on the practitioner. Depends on what they feel they need to do. The only thing that is absolutely essential is guru yoga followed by song of the vajra.

N

That is ChNN talking. Jim Valby told me the Song of Vajra is his terma tradition. I took this to mean Song of Vajra is not indispensable, because there are so many guru yoga methods. Whether you sing a song, visualize a picture or hum a mantra, you are doing something to get into not doing something. What that doing something is, is blessings.

[adinatha]

No teacher, no practice of Dzogchen. Period.

What you don't believe in divine revelation?

No.

So when ChNN had mind treasures revealed that was something else?

[gregkavarnos]

If you would like to believe that whatever it is in Greek Orthodoxy you are calling "rainbow body" is absolutely equivalent with achieving complete Buddhahood, that's up to you. I don't buy it.

You don't believe that a serious [insert religious label of choice] ascetic practitioner can achieve the state of a pratyekabuddha (for example)? Or maybe that some teachings may have leaked (snuck) into other religious traditions? Or maybe [insert religious label of choice] practitioners do not possess the tathagatagarbha?