Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Mr. G » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:06 pm

Namdrol wrote:One either has that personal experience or one does not. It is not the kind of thing one can brag about on an internet forum and expect it to be convincing to others. Mostly, they will just think you are full of sh!t.

N


Worse is that it will dissuade people from studying Dzogchen on top of misunderstanding it. I knew someone who told me the teachings of Dzogchen were no different than the teachings of Nisargadatta Maharaj.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:07 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Let me be really specific now. Longchenpa says it is possible to be liberated just from reading his words.



This does not mean that one will manifest buddhahood immediately.


We agree. When buddhahood manifests what manifests to the buddha?

There are many texts in Dzogchen which stated "merely by reading these words one will be liberated". There is also "merely by hearing this one will be liberated", "merely by tasting this one will be liberated", "merely by seeing this one will be liberated", "merely by smelling this one will be liberated", "merely by touching this one will be liberated", etc.

This is all part of the six liberations traditions in Dzogchen. It means you have created a good cause for liberation in your continuum.


At least in Longchepa's Treasury of Natural Perfection, the meaning is very clear that he intends the book to be his definitive statement in clear precise language, not needing any further interpretation, that Ati as a timeless truism to be intuitively soaked up right then. There's no room for after or what next. That is left aside.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:16 pm

mr. gordo wrote:
Namdrol wrote:One either has that personal experience or one does not. It is not the kind of thing one can brag about on an internet forum and expect it to be convincing to others. Mostly, they will just think you are full of sh!t.

N


Worse is that it will dissuade people from studying Dzogchen on top of misunderstanding it. I knew someone who told me the teachings of Dzogchen were no different than the teachings of Nisargadatta Maharaj.


That would be clearly wrong and based on a total misunderstanding of Atiyoga. First of all, Advaita Vedanta does not have mind transmission blessings. Second of all, Advaita Vedanta is not an effortless path. Third of all, Advaita wants to dwell on nothingness as nirguna parabrahman. Of course, there are obvious similarities about realizations of maya and causality. To discount what Nisargadatta Maharaja says is wrong too. Much of what he says is very profound and instructive. Neo-Advaitans totally misrepresent traditional Advaita. Buddhists love to belittle Hindus. But there are lineages of Hindu yogis with great power. Respect is due. If you don't believe me go screw with a sadhu. Even high lamas know to watch out. But Atiyoga definitely stand alone as the upper reach of possible paths. With none tied for first place.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Mr. G » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:17 pm

adinatha wrote:At least in Longchepa's Treasury of Natural Perfection, the meaning is very clear that he intends the book to be his definitive statement in clear precise language, not needing any further interpretation, that Ati as a timeless truism to be intuitively soaked up right then. There's no room for after or what next. That is left aside.


So if I read this book, that's all I need and I'm good to go? ;)
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Enochian » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:39 pm

adinatha wrote:Look at what you are implying with everything you say. You know Tibetan. You have texts others don't. You've studied it for 20 years. You practiced it for 20 years. You have personal experience that's so profound you can't even talk about it. You dole out pithy little proclamations about what is the case without backing it up and if someone doesn't agree with you, you go on the offensive ad hominem. Be a professional, man. There is Atiyoga language synonymous with experience. Maybe this challenges orthodox Dzogchen teachings. Orthodox and Dzogchen should be an oxymoron. That's never the case with people though.



I don't understand why there is still a beef.

Describe what you don't agree with in ONE sentence.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:40 pm

mr. gordo wrote:
adinatha wrote:At least in Longchepa's Treasury of Natural Perfection, the meaning is very clear that he intends the book to be his definitive statement in clear precise language, not needing any further interpretation, that Ati as a timeless truism to be intuitively soaked up right then. There's no room for after or what next. That is left aside.


So if I read this book, that's all I need and I'm good to go? ;)


There is that possibility. There are no guarantees. I would say perhaps reading it with great devotion, perhaps praying to Longchenpa and the lineage with heartbursting love and reverence, practicing a guru yoga of Longchenpa (for example in "You are the Eyes of the World,") and then make reading it like sitting in front of Buddha, every word a precious gem, then, realization can arise of its own. Even if it doesn't. Just take the words to heart, like "the natural land of perfection is free of buddhas and sentient beings" and just be easy with yourself. He's saying there's nothing to do. It's already there. Believe him. At least suspend disbelief. Slowly awareness can blaze, like after running a marathon. Maybe you have to re-read it a few times. Or put it aside and move on. Nothing is ever lost, because he is telling the truth and the meaning can dawn on you in an effortful sadhana. And then you just get it. If you burst out laughing and you feel like everything is playing, then you do get it.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Mr. G » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:42 pm

adinatha wrote:That would be clearly wrong and based on a total misunderstanding of Atiyoga. First of all, Advaita Vedanta does not have mind transmission blessings. Second of all, Advaita Vedanta is not an effortless path. Third of all, Advaita wants to dwell on nothingness as nirguna parabrahman. Of course, there are obvious similarities about realizations of maya and causality.


The point I'm trying to make is when you start throwing out popular vague Dzogchen quotes with no reference points, Dzogchen becomes indistinguishable from Hinduism, Sufism, Gnostic Chrisitanity, etc. Without precise language when speaking to people of different capacities, it looks like perennial philosophy.

But there are lineages of Hindu yogis with great power. Respect is due.


Siddhis are fine. The question is does a Hindu escape the cycle of birth and death.

If you don't believe me go screw with a sadhu. Even high lamas know to watch out.


Alrighty then. :?
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:42 pm

adinatha wrote:There is Atiyoga language synonymous with experience.


Only if you have this experience.

Otherwise, Dzogchen texts are confusing bullshit.

Re: ad hominem -- I didn't attack you, I expressed an opinion about what you wrote here, qualified with "seems".

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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:46 pm

Enochian wrote:
adinatha wrote:Look at what you are implying with everything you say. You know Tibetan. You have texts others don't. You've studied it for 20 years. You practiced it for 20 years. You have personal experience that's so profound you can't even talk about it. You dole out pithy little proclamations about what is the case without backing it up and if someone doesn't agree with you, you go on the offensive ad hominem. Be a professional, man. There is Atiyoga language synonymous with experience. Maybe this challenges orthodox Dzogchen teachings. Orthodox and Dzogchen should be an oxymoron. That's never the case with people though.



I don't understand why there is still a beef.

Describe what you don't agree with in ONE sentence.


Okay. skip down the thread I think we are getting to the real issue now.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Mr. G » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:47 pm

adinatha wrote:There is that possibility. There are no guarantees. I would say perhaps reading it with great devotion, perhaps praying to Longchenpa and the lineage with heartbursting love and reverence, practicing a guru yoga of Longchenpa (for example in "You are the Eyes of the World,") and then make reading it like sitting in front of Buddha, every word a precious gem, then, realization can arise of its own. Even if it doesn't. Just take the words to heart, like "the natural land of perfection is free of buddhas and sentient beings" and just be easy with yourself. He's saying there's nothing to do. It's already there. Believe him. At least suspend disbelief. Slowly awareness can blaze, like after running a marathon. Maybe you have to re-read it a few times. Or put it aside and move on. Nothing is ever lost, because he is telling the truth and the meaning can dawn on you in an effortful sadhana. And then you just get it. If you burst out laughing and you feel like everything is playing, then you do get it.


This is the issue: What you just wrote (doing guru yoga, reading tantras, devotion, confidence) is no different than a person who practices the path of transformation. What you wrote about Dzogchen is no different than person who practices Tantra. I'm sure there is something more subtle and deep, but you are not explaining it well enough for me. However, it could just be that I'm a person of lower capacity....this may be true and I don't mean to be self deprecating.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:49 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:"elucidating Garab Dorje's meaning is to benefit those most keen minds that are able to gain instantaneous release into reality just as it is by listening to these words or by reading them."
Hum, I've read them. Nothing happened! :lol:
Now what? ;)
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Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:50 pm

mr. gordo wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:"elucidating Garab Dorje's meaning is to benefit those most keen minds that are able to gain instantaneous release into reality just as it is by listening to these words or by reading them."
Hum, I've read them. Nothing happened! :lol:
Now what? ;)


I think this is the problem that can occur on forums. Language can get used so fast and loose when talking about Dzogchen that a lot can be misunderstood. What's worse is that you can take some posts completely out of context and interchange some of the words so it's indistinguishable from Neo-Advaita....which ends up being an "Everything is perfect as it is" muddling. It's really quite unhelpful. I've received Dzogchen teachings and they are not my main practices, but if the meaning behind Dzogchen is as profound and hard to understand as they say, we should use more precise verbiage if possible. I know I find it helpful when people do.

Guys, I'm jokin'! :lol:
I thought that was pretty clear!
The rest I've said in the other posts stand until duly corrected.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Mr. G » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:53 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:Guys, I'm jokin'! :lol:
I thought that was pretty clear!
The rest I've said in the other posts stand until duly corrected.


No, I knew you were joking! :lol: My post was indirectly meant for other members. :smile:
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:01 pm

Just a personal opinion... Dzogchen is about mostly having a very qualified guru, study and practice.

I pay special attention to what Namdrol says about the subject since he has qualifications to speak about it. It's good to understand better a few points.
But Dzogchen practice has nothing to do with forums. Here and there we can learn bits and pieces, but actual practice is not something that can be easily put in words. And I'm not talking about fancy experiences or profound insights, but simply the whole process, what really goes on as we practice and time goes by.

It's easier to discuss sutrayana, even some aspects of tantra, but Dzogchen practice has something about it that really doesn't make me want to talk about it in public forums. It's like showing the picture of a delicious fruit and spending lots of time talking about it. Unless we bite, all falls short, all seems quite fake. I don't know if you guys get what I mean (since my English is not that good). This doesn't mean I don't like to read what others say, but the usual ping-pong of arguments when it comes to Dzogchen seems rather sterile.
Just my opinion, obviously, and let me stress it again, it's the opinion of an ignorant who probably thinks he is less ignorant than he really is. :emb:
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:02 pm

mr. gordo wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:Guys, I'm jokin'! :lol:
I thought that was pretty clear!
The rest I've said in the other posts stand until duly corrected.


No, I knew you were joking! :lol: My post was indirectly meant for other members. :smile:

:namaste: Just don't want to add to the confusion! :lol:
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Enochian » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:06 pm

Adinatha talks a LOT about guru yoga, but is he aware than in Dzogchen that guru yoga is nothing other than abiding in the natural state?

Maybe Namdrol can verify.

A lot of people misunderstand the symbolism of the A in the thigle at the heart (Dzogchen guru yoga).
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:10 pm

Enochian wrote:Adinatha talks a LOT about guru yoga, but is he aware than in Dzogchen that guru yoga is nothing other than abiding in the natural state?

Maybe Namdrol can verify.

A lot of people misunderstand the symbolism of the A in the thigle at the heart (Dzogchen guru yoga).



I am sure he has some idea since he has attended webcasts. He probably also knows that in the community, Norbu Rinpoche never stresses devotion as the key point of guru yoga, rather he stresses knowledge as the key point of guru yoga.

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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:11 pm

mr. gordo wrote:The point I'm trying to make is when you start throwing out popular vague Dzogchen quotes with no reference points, Dzogchen becomes indistinguishable from Hinduism, Sufism, Gnostic Chrisitanity, etc. Without precise language when speaking to people of different capacities, it looks like perennial philosophy.


The continued dialogue is indispensable. I see how a relationship should develop. If you hear ChNN talk you can easily get this idea too. He talks about how he reads the Bible and understands the Trinity to be Dzogchen, and the one God to be Unity. So?... Look. Atiyoga lesson 1: Suspend concepts. Lesson 2: Don't pick em up. Lesson 3: Bam!

Siddhis are fine. The question is does a Hindu escape the cycle of birth and death.


Not possible based on their teachings alone. Perhaps an inner realization can dawn a la Prateykabuddha style. This is a very real possibility that the Buddha states can and does happen. When I read Nisargadatta Maharaja he clearly says things that border on buddhadharma that you will not hear any other Advaita masters ever say. For example how everything just appears from the ground, yet the ground is not conditioned. That is close. They even have a teaching on causal body that is basically identical to alaya. Matsyendranatha was a mahasiddha who according to their own legend rolled with the Vajra crew. So even when he talks about gunas and sankya, it is obvious he is not really interested in philosophy and is basically saying go to the ultimate. Where you know you are in Hindu land is where he is saying penetrate deep into consciousness, beyond consciousness and anchor yourself into nothingness. This is a focus that will result in a formless existence according to higher wisdom. Even though the realization is not a focus, the fact that the practitioner has become so revolted with existence, a craving for nonexistence forms and then a clinging to nothingness results in a leaking samadhi. This is a bogglingly long samadhi masquerading as eternity. I had a discussion with some high level Advaita yogi in Bangalore, India, where he had to admit that the parabrahman/saguna braman situation was an eternal flux, meaning, a situation of impermanence. That didn't seem to bother him.

If you don't believe me go screw with a sadhu. Even high lamas know to watch out.


Alrighty then. :?[/quote]

If you're strollin around the streets or foothills of India these encounters come up. There are many stories shared between our two traditions of when the lama met the sadhu.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby conebeckham » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:15 pm

I have profound respect and devotion to Longchenpa and the Dzogchen lineages...but I will say that the Blessing of the Guru is essential, mere reading of texts may benefit, or it may just create misunderstanding. But even if there is benefit, I don't believe mere reading of even such a profound text as the "Way of Abiding," for instance, is equivalent to "NgoTro" by qualified teacher, to qualified student.

Mostly, one cannot talk about experience in a way that communicates effectively--talk from such as us is merely wind--mind does ride upon wind, or is even equivalent to it, but wind/mind is not Rigpa.
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Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:19 pm

adinatha wrote:
If you hear ChNN talk you can easily get this idea too. He talks about how he reads the Bible and understands the Trinity to be Dzogchen, and the one God to be Unity.


From the point of view of someone who understands the real meaning of Dzogchen, everything looks like Dzogchen, even nursery rhymes.

But this does not mean that the Bible contains some profound insight in Dzogchen.

In this case it is a question of what kind of glasses you have on. If you are wearing Dzogchen glasses everything can seem like Dzogchen.

But it is funny, ChNN occasionally says things like this, and IMO, immediately people completely misunderstand the meaning he is trying to convey.

He certainly does not mean that there are secret Dzogchen practitioners in the Catholic or Lutheran Church from time immemorial.

He is not a "John Reynolds" style "Jesus got Rainbow Body" type.
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