Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

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adinatha
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YDE

Postby adinatha » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:54 am

CAW!

Enochian
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Enochian » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:11 am

I totally disagree that yogacara, sutras and tantras share the same view. Norbu explains somewhere why Dzogchen teachings differs from yogacara. I think maybe it was in Dzogchen Teachings.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.

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adinatha
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby adinatha » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:47 am

Atiyoga is the yoga of maya par exellence. Yogacara means the view that comes from the yogi's practice. Atiyoga is yoga. The differences between Sutra Yogacara and Ati is not view but method. In Yogacara you take the suchness of one skandha, like vedana, and don't get into the emptiness of the rest of skandhas or phenomena. This is also one way that the Sahaja Mahamudra practice is introduced. In Atiyoga, Sri Satguruji goes Pow! "Maya's this!" And then, without further investigation of the matter, an involuntary samadhi of the suchness of maya takes over, as if an ember were tossed into your scarecrow body and incinerates you from within. If the Buddha held back reality he would be guilty of stinginess; then, how could he have perfected generosity? Out of compassion, different methods were taught, because different strokes for different folks. But he never could have hid the ball; otherwise, how could he have perfected precepts? If he holds different views, how could he have perfected prajna? The Buddha always has one view, one taste of suchness. Main point. Direct yogic perception is the view that defeats doubts by the power of autonomic samadhis. So we're not talking about a point of view or an opinion. We are talking about your mind. It is beyond categories. Beyond is the meaning of Ati.
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Enochian
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Enochian » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:36 am

Well Dzogchen has nothing to do with the mind, since mind is merely a vayu in the body. In fact I think Longchenpa says that the mind is an obscuration to omniscience.

Even Norbu says stuff like 'own's own nature' and avoids using the word mind.

On top of that Menngagde emphasises distinguishing rigpa and sems (mind) from each other.

Once you distinguish pristine rigpa from sems (mind), the view is like a elephant rushing to water, free from being bound by concepts, judgements, arguments or thoughts.
Last edited by Enochian on Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:38 am, edited 6 times in total.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.

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adinatha
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby adinatha » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:23 am

Fine if you want to use that terminology go ahead. Then according to Yogacara you can call it "consciousness-only," and avoid the use of the word "mind." From the beginning, the Buddha taught purity and luminosity in consciousness. But Buddhism does not take the wind in the body to be a material object, or even any objective thing. Appearances are void-luminosity is what Ati reveals in direct perception of vidya. This terminology arises due to union of method and wisdom in Atiyoga. Togal makes use of pure channels and only the pure part of the afflicted ones. Here, you are separating afflicted mind from pure. You can say you are separating mind and nature of mind in the method of isolating void-luminosity. This is a preliminary, not the final realization. Ultimately all appearances are luminosity without regard to afflicted mind and nature of mind, because, then, everything is unafflicted. What is afflicted mind? Grasping a truth in appearance. What is luminosity? Everything is maya and no truth is grasped anywhere, where there is no bias for voidness or appearances and one is freely available to liberate other beings. Adibuddha is your timelessly present svabhava. Longchenpa also taught the essence of the three series in his Treasuries as one maya yoga. Truly Guru Prahevajra taught the "Three Vajra Verses" as one single method. What is a method anyway? It is a method to do what? To abolish you? To transform you? To liberate you? If you are already Adibuddha, what's there to liberate? You are pre-liberated. You simply must overcome your doubt. Method is only a doubt eraser. Is your doubt something you can point to? But your permanently luminous mind can be pointed out, and that is the ultimate method inseparable from the primal wisdom. Jai! Jai! Sri! Guru! Deva! Dakiniya!
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Malcolm
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:48 pm

Last edited by Malcolm on Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.




འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Grigoris
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Grigoris » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:25 pm

Crippled by Sutra? If this doesn't start a bunfight nothing will!
:popcorn:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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adinatha
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby adinatha » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:30 pm

Last edited by adinatha on Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
CAW!

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Grigoris
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Grigoris » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:45 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:50 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

Enochian
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Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 pm

Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Enochian » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:18 pm

This is all silly.

Once you distinguish pristine rigpa from sems (mind), the view becomes like a thirsty elephant running to water. There is no need to argue, judge etc.

All right and wrong views are self-liberated
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.

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Malcolm
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Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:24 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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adinatha
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby adinatha » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:51 pm

CAW!

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adinatha
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby adinatha » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:53 pm

CAW!

Enochian
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Enochian » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:55 pm

Adinatha,

Aren't you just saying something that is in every book by the Dalai Lama?

That there is a discrepency between every thoughtform and reality.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.

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Malcolm
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:59 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

User avatar
adinatha
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby adinatha » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:09 pm

CAW!

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Malcolm
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Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:13 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

Enochian
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 pm

Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Enochian » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:13 pm

There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.

Josef
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Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Reasons for Rebirth

Postby Josef » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:19 pm

Nothing significant to contribute but I just wanted to say that this is an excellent thread.
Keep it coming.


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