Dharma Wheel

Namdrol wrote:

Enochian wrote:

Pema Rigdzin wrote:According to Vajrayana, no one has ever achieved Buddhahood any place on Earth or any place else, nor will they ever. If one is to say it's attained anywhere, it's Akanistha.

Now this is an embarrassingly wrong statement

Maybe he meant sutrayana

No, Indian Vajrayāna more or less follows sutra in terms of basic Buddhology.

One cannot achieve Buddahood on physical earth using Vajrayana?

I am confused

Namdrol wrote: Dzogchen describes two states of final Buddhahood: abhisambodhi and samyaksambodhi. The former is with residue, the latter without residue. The latter turns Mahāyāna buddhology on its head again, by asserting there is an abiding Buddhahood as opposed to the common Mahāyāna ideal of non-abiding Buddhahood.

abiding vs nonabiding?

What is that now?

Enochian wrote:

One cannot achieve Buddahood on physical earth using Vajrayana?

I am confused

According to general Vajrayāna teachings, Buddhahood, still occurs in Akanistha via a mental body.

N

Namdrol wrote:

Enochian wrote:

One cannot achieve Buddahood on physical earth using Vajrayana?

I am confused

According to general Vajrayāna teachings, Buddhahood, still occurs in Akanistha via a mental body.

N

Did not know that!

I'm trying to understand you, Namdrol la, correctly here. Correct me if I don't have this right, please. Body of light is an inner realization where nothing changes in the physical body, right? One can achieve dzogchen's definition of samyaksambodhi by realization of the body of light, right? So one would have a physical body just like before, and one would have attained the non-abiding buddhahood of kadag chenpo in this body on this Earth. Is this right?

Then, the body of great transference or the body shrinking at death, for example, is the natural dissolution of the elements into the five wisdom lights; it is at this point when one, according to the texts, looks at the lights in one's hand and maintains a form, or one doesn't do that and the form is gone. Is this right?

Then what accounts for the omniscience? Isn't like the Garuda and the egg. The Garuda hatches fully developed. The body would be the egg, right? Omniscience couldn't be possible until body is overcome, by realizing the body of light within the physical body (making the physical body a mere appearance) or by shedding the body at death. But the omniscience is already fully present; though it is obscured temporarily. Isn't this right?

adinatha wrote:I'm trying to understand you, Namdrol la, correctly here. Correct me if I don't have this right, please. Body of light is an inner realization where nothing changes in the physical body, right?

As I understand it, yes.

One can achieve dzogchen's definition of samyaksambodhi by realization of the body of light, right?

Yes.

So one would have a physical body just like before, and one would have attained the non-abiding buddhahood of kadag chenpo in this body on this Earth. Is this right?

Yes.

Then, the body of great transference or the body shrinking at death, for example, is the natural dissolution of the elements into the five wisdom lights; it is at this point when one, according to the texts, looks at the lights in one's hand and maintains a form, or one doesn't do that and the form is gone. Is this right?

Well, the elements are already in the form of the five lights of wisdom even now. The only difference is that we don't perceive their actual nature. Body of light is our perception of the elements reverting to wisdom light.

Then what accounts for the omniscience?

The six abhijñās that develop naturally as one works through the four visions. The third vision corresponds with path of seeing in common mahayana.

N

Is this observation of light and visions stuff you are talking about related to thogyal? People have told me that if I do retreats of practices I already know that I can have visions and I remember the thought scared me at the time, but I find it safe to say the only thing I ever see are spots of multicolored light which I think are just visual stuff from keeping my eyes still while I sing song of vajra. Don't think I'm ever going to have a vision.

I've heard "visions" is not the right translation, because of the English connotation with dreams and native American vision-quests. In Togal/Yangti, they are appearances.

Namdrol wrote:The six abhijñās that develop naturally as one works through the four visions. The third vision corresponds with path of seeing in common mahayana.

N

This part is weird, because it seems like seeing the basis in Tregcho is the path of seeing and the lights in the first appearance would be the path of meditation. I'm not versed in the traditional breakdown of the four appearances and the five paths, but I've heard it said the correspondence is loose, because Togal/Yangti is so fast. No?

Seems like perhaps some people might see these appearances and not connect them to the path of seeing until the third appearance; others might be in the path of seeing and take time to see the appearances. This can happen too could it not?

Namdrol wrote:

Enochian wrote:Namdrol,

You agree with the part where he said "So far there is no human who has become Buddha on Earth"???

Or are you simply saying that is the view of sutrayana?

I am saying this is the view of sutrayāna cf. Lanka-avatyara sutra, to paraphrase "The real Buddha attains full awakening in Akanistha, an emanated one attains Buddhahood here".

So in Sutrayana, you have to be an emanation of a previously accomplished one from Akanistha, but in Dzogchen you don't? Simply due to the effectiveness of the methods transmitted through Dzogchen?

adinatha wrote:I've heard "visions" is not the right translation, because of the English connotation with dreams and native American vision-quests. In Togal/Yangti, they are appearances.

I seriously got to get my act together and do some of these retreats.

Vajrahridaya wrote:

Namdrol wrote:

Enochian wrote:Namdrol,

You agree with the part where he said "So far there is no human who has become Buddha on Earth"???

Or are you simply saying that is the view of sutrayana?

I am saying this is the view of sutrayāna cf. Lanka-avatyara sutra, to paraphrase "The real Buddha attains full awakening in Akanistha, an emanated one attains Buddhahood here".

So in Sutrayana, you have to be an emanation of a previously accomplished one from Akanistha, but in Dzogchen you don't? Simply due to the effectiveness of the methods transmitted through Dzogchen?

Never mind, you already answered earlier in the thread, I thought I was asking at the end of the thread on page one... ooops.

padma norbu wrote:

adinatha wrote:I've heard "visions" is not the right translation, because of the English connotation with dreams and native American vision-quests. In Togal/Yangti, they are appearances.

I seriously got to get my act together and do some of these retreats.

Yup, I want to at some point as well. It'd be easier in an alien spaceship in the middle of the milky way though.

Enochian wrote:
Rainbow body occurs whenever a physical human gains Buddhahood on PHYSICAL EARTH (as opposed to in the bardo, in various heavens etc.)

Tashi delek,

Thought that in the Bardo a Dzogchen practitioner can obtain enlightenment according some mastered visions obtained during his/her earthly time of practice.
So Rainbow Body, is indeed imo. obtained within this live but at the time of the disconnection of the elements etc. which is also called a Bardo state.

So in the Tibetan Book of the Death is this proces of the recognizing of the Lights very good explained.

Best wishes
KY

adinatha wrote:
This part is weird, because it seems like seeing the basis in Tregcho is the path of seeing and the lights in the first appearance would be the path of meditation. I'm not versed in the traditional breakdown of the four appearances and the five paths, but I've heard it said the correspondence is loose, because Togal/Yangti is so fast. No?

The first vision resembles the path of seeing because one is seeing "dharmata" directly. It is actually heat on the path of application because at this stage one's understanding of emptiness is still inferential, according to Khenpo Ngawang Palzang, Chatral Rinpoche's guru.

One reason it is considered "like" the path of seeing, etc. is that when one is engaging in the first two visions, one's course obscurations dissolve. In common mahayana and vajrayana this only happens after one realizes the actual path of seeing. This is a special feature of togal.

N

Adhinatha wrote:
This part is weird, because it seems like seeing the basis in Tregcho is the path of seeing and the lights in the first appearance would be the path of meditation.

Tashi delek,
The meditation in Dzogchen is to be in the Natural State, which is united with Thodgal. That is the base to experience the first Lamp with its related Visions.
I guess that would be the right following order of Trekchod and Thodgal. I know that some schools teach Trekchod and Thodgal as separate, but i did learn this as united in the Bon Dzogchen. This means that within the abiding of the Natural State the Visions are self emanated and are in that way inter related (Trekchod and Thodgal).

Best wishes
KY

kalden yungdrung wrote:

Adhinatha wrote:
This part is weird, because it seems like seeing the basis in Tregcho is the path of seeing and the lights in the first appearance would be the path of meditation.

Tashi delek,
The meditation in Dzogchen is to be in the Natural State, which is united with Thodgal. That is the base to experience the first Lamp with its related Visions.
I guess that would be the right following order of Trekchod and Thodgal. I know that some schools teach Trekchod and Thodgal as separate, but i did learn this as united in the Bon Dzogchen. This means that within the abiding of the Natural State the Visions are self emanated and are in that way inter related.

Best wishes
KY

Teaching treghcho and thogal as separate is a later expedient. It was not taught that way in the beginning.

N

Namdrol wrote:
Teaching treghcho and thogal as separate is a later expedient. It was not taught that way in the beginning.

Tashi delek,

Wat would be the advantage of teaching Trekchod and Thodgal as separate or sequential?

Best wishes
KY

kalden yungdrung wrote:

Namdrol wrote:
Teaching treghcho and thogal as separate is a later expedient. It was not taught that way in the beginning.

Tashi delek,

Wat would be the advantage of teaching Trekchod and Thodgal as separate or sequential?

Best wishes
KY

It is felt that for some people, there will be too much attachment to appearances unless they are very stable in tregcho first.