Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby cloudburst » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:27 pm

Namdrol wrote:
cloudburst wrote:I suppose I do not know if this is what I mean, as this terminology falls outside my experience. How is this uncontrived momentary awareness different from my moment to moment uncontrived awareness?


The difference is summed up nicely by "Parting From The Four Attachments "If grasping arises, it is no the view."

N


The Glorious Sakya. Unstoppable.

However, from my pov, we cannot equate a view free from grasping with the very subtle mind of clear light. It is possible to have view free from grasping as a result of following the sutra path, whereas clear light depends upon empowerment.

Do you say this parting from the four attachments expresses the Dzogchen view? "Free from grasping" is the dzogchen view? Is that adequate, or do you add something?
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:37 pm

cloudburst wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
cloudburst wrote:I suppose I do not know if this is what I mean, as this terminology falls outside my experience. How is this uncontrived momentary awareness different from my moment to moment uncontrived awareness?


The difference is summed up nicely by "Parting From The Four Attachments "If grasping arises, it is no the view."

N


The Glorious Sakya. Unstoppable.

However, from my pov, we cannot equate a view free from grasping with the very subtle mind of clear light. It is possible to have view free from grasping as a result of following the sutra path, whereas clear light depends upon empowerment.

Do you say this parting from the four attachments expresses the Dzogchen view? "Free from grasping" is the dzogchen view? Is that adequate, or do you add something?


Yes, the final line in Parting expresses Dzogchen view. But this is not an intellectual "freedom from grasping". The freedom from grasping of sutra is a coarse freedom from grasping. Freedom from grasping becomes progressively more subtle.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby cloudburst » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:48 pm

cloudburst wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
cloudburst wrote:I suppose I do not know if this is what I mean, as this terminology falls outside my experience. How is this uncontrived momentary awareness different from my moment to moment uncontrived awareness?


The difference is summed up nicely by "Parting From The Four Attachments "If grasping arises, it is no the view."


Do you say this parting from the four attachments expresses the Dzogchen view? "Free from grasping" is the dzogchen view? Is that adequate, or do you add something?


Yes, the final line in Parting expresses Dzogchen view. But this is not an intellectual "freedom from grasping". The freedom from grasping of sutra is a coarse freedom from grasping. Freedom from grasping becomes progressively more subtle.


lovely.

So the coarse freedom from grasping of sutra becomes progressively more subtle.

It seems to me that the freedom from grasping explained in sutra becomes more subtle as the energy winds supporting the view gather and are pacified, so perhaps clear light and Dzogchen view differ in presentation only.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:52 pm

cloudburst wrote:
lovely.

So the coarse freedom from grasping of sutra becomes progressively more subtle.

It seems to me that the freedom from grasping explained in sutra becomes more subtle as the energy winds supporting the view gather and are pacified, so perhaps clear light and Dzogchen view differ in presentation only.


What I meant was that freedom from grasping is progressively more and more subtle as one moves through the practices of the nine yānas.

No need to add "energy" to winds. The composition of vāyus is vāyu, the element of air. We term them "winds" in English because they move through the channels of body. Wind is moving air -- no movement, no wind.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Caz » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:53 pm

Tsongkhapa and Dzogchen they are not words often heard together within the Gelugpa, If Je Rinpoche had taught Dzogchen I think perhapes there would be a lineage of Gelug Dzogchen although Ive never heard of one. Im aware Tsongkhapa was taught by various teachers including Nyinmapa Dzogchenpas so the likelyhood of him receiving transmission on Dzogchen would be high for a practitoner of such refined calibre. Perhapes he simply did not think Dzogchen appropriate for the auidence he was teaching everyone is karmically different so It would make sense that is unless there is a super secret lineage of Gelug Dzogchen that has been passed on throughout the years ? :shrug:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby cloudburst » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:21 pm

Namdrol wrote:
cloudburst wrote:
lovely.

So the coarse freedom from grasping of sutra becomes progressively more subtle.

It seems to me that the freedom from grasping explained in sutra becomes more subtle as the energy winds supporting the view gather and are pacified, so perhaps clear light and Dzogchen view differ in presentation only.


What I meant was that freedom from grasping is progressively more and more subtle as one moves through the practices of the nine yānas.

No need to add "energy" to winds. The composition of vāyus is vāyu, the element of air. We term them "winds" in English because they move through the channels of body. Wind is moving air -- no movement, no wind.

N


so dzogchen view is sutra view of freedom from grasping made more and more subtle as one moves through the yanas. This is description also aptly describes the mind of clear light.

the purpose in adding "energy" to winds is to differentiate "moving air" from moving energy. If you already understand this, there is as you say no need for this term. There is however no fault in adding it for purposes of clarity.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:54 pm

cloudburst wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
cloudburst wrote:
lovely.

So the coarse freedom from grasping of sutra becomes progressively more subtle.

It seems to me that the freedom from grasping explained in sutra becomes more subtle as the energy winds supporting the view gather and are pacified, so perhaps clear light and Dzogchen view differ in presentation only.


What I meant was that freedom from grasping is progressively more and more subtle as one moves through the practices of the nine yānas.

No need to add "energy" to winds. The composition of vāyus is vāyu, the element of air. We term them "winds" in English because they move through the channels of body. Wind is moving air -- no movement, no wind.

N


so dzogchen view is sutra view of freedom from grasping made more and more subtle as one moves through the yanas. This is description also aptly describes the mind of clear light.

the purpose in adding "energy" to winds is to differentiate "moving air" from moving energy. If you already understand this, there is as you say no need for this term. There is however no fault in adding it for purposes of clarity.


I guess I am not explaining this clearly: dzogchen view is the ultimate freedom from grasping, quite beyond sūtra.

The only difference between wind in your body and wind outside your body is that it is in your body. There is no "energy" apart from vāyu. There are ten vāyus. The less those vāyus move in the body, the more subtle the mind becomes.

I don't think adding the term "energvy" makes the concept about what is happening in the human body any clearer, and rather more muddled.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby cloudburst » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:06 pm

Namdrol wrote:
cloudburst wrote:
so dzogchen view is sutra view of freedom from grasping made more and more subtle as one moves through the yanas. This is description also aptly describes the mind of clear light.

the purpose in adding "energy" to winds is to differentiate "moving air" from moving energy. If you already understand this, there is as you say no need for this term. There is however no fault in adding it for purposes of clarity.


I guess I am not explaining this clearly: dzogchen view is the ultimate freedom from grasping, quite beyond sūtra.


That could be a good definition of clear light as well. If there is no grasping and then the mond becomes more subtle by moving through the yanas, what else do you need?

Namdrol wrote:
The only difference between wind in your body and wind outside your body is that it is in your body. There is no "energy" apart from vāyu. There are ten vāyus. The less those vāyus move in the body, the more subtle the mind becomes.


So you are saying that which flows through the channels is Nitrogen, Oxygen, Argon and Carbon Dioxide?

Namdrol wrote: I don't think adding the term "energvy" makes the concept about what is happening in the human body any clearer, and rather more muddled.


I suppose everyone has their preferences.... I will happily leave off the word energy when discussing with you.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Stewart » Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:06 pm

From the OP, does anyone have a PDF of this text? Tibetan and/or English

Apparently you need a facebook account to download it from the page, which I haven't got...or want.

Many Thanks,

s.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:31 pm

Tashi delek,


- Are those Dzogchen teachings authentic?
- What Dzogchen teachings did he teached?
- Is here spoken of an uninterrupted / unbroken Dzogchen lineage?
- Can one give Dzogchen teachings when not being inside the unbroken lineage of Dzogchen Masters?
- The Dalai Lama 14 got also Dzogchen teachings, does that mean he is a Dzogchen Rigdzin?
- The 5th Dalai Lama was also fond of Dzogchen, he knew what was good ! Is he therefore a Dzogchen Rigdzin?

Yes the mainpoint here is that if one doen't belong to an unbroken Dzogchen lineage as follower then the Dzogchen teachings are not 100% and i understood that Gelug or Kadampa was the lineage here with Dorje Chang as the head and not Kuntu Zangpo.

But maybe did i missed the meaning or the point of view here.............


Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:42 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:[color=#0080FF]Tashi delek,


- Are those Dzogchen teachings authentic?
- What Dzogchen teachings did he teached?



Tsongkhapa never taught Dzogchen. The incident in question is when he was visiting a Nyingma master who had a vision of Vajrapani, and in that during that time, Tsongkhapa asked whether Dzogchen was authentic and Vajrapani replied that it was.

- The 5th Dalai Lama was also fond of Dzogchen, he knew what was good ! Is he therefore a Dzogchen Rigdzin?


The Great Fifth was an important terton. He wrote a detailed manual on Dzogchen practice as well.



Yes the mainpoint here is that if one doen't belong to an unbroken Dzogchen lineage as follower then the Dzogchen teachings are not 100% and i understood that Gelug or Kadampa was the lineage here with Dorje Chang as the head and not Kuntu Zangpo.


There is really no different between Samantabhadra and Vajradhara.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:59 pm

Namdrol wrote:
The Great Fifth was an important terton. He wrote a detailed manual on Dzogchen practice as well.


Tashi delek,

- What did the 5th Dalai Lama as a Terton discovered?
- What was his previous reincarnation in those days when he did hide teachings?
- In how far is it trustable all the informations of the 5th Dalai Lama? Say this because of his enormous power in relation to the Mongols, war with Kagyu. Sometimes because of that all do i doubt some informations regarding his person.


Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 18, 2011 5:46 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
- What did the 5th Dalai Lama as a Terton discovered?


Many cycles including Dorje Drollo, Tara, etc. Many of them are included in the Rinchen Terzö.

- What was his previous reincarnation in those days when he did hide teachings?


Trisong Detsen.

- In how far is it trustable all the informations of the 5th Dalai Lama?


Completely trustworthy. He was not responsible for war with the King of Tsang, Karma Tenkyong Wangpo. The history of Central Tibet from 1621-1642 is roughly the history of warring Mongol factions, one side backing the Kagyus, the other side backing the Gelugpas, fighting over central Tibet. All of this happened while the Fifth was a child and a young man. He was born in 1617. He had very little to do with the suppression of the Kagyu school. This was done in his name by the regent Sonam Chophel. It was not until Chophel died 1658 that the Fifth began to exercise any real power on his own.

Samten Karmey has an interesting article here:

http://www.iias.nl/nl/39/IIAS_NL39_1213.pdf
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Caz » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:00 pm

I find this part interesting it has previously been suggested that the reincarnation lineage of the Dalai lama was tampered with.
So if exactly he was a great terton who was he a reincarnation of because this certainly suggests that it wasnt the previous 4th ?

The Fifth Dalai Lama retained bitter memories of his childhood
during which the philosophical and religious regarding
reincarnation served political purposes. In his writings he
recalls with irony the political manipulations of his own religious
order, which involved the Mongols in all its affairs. He
writes in his autobiography: ‘The official Tsawa Kachu of the
Ganden Palace showed me statues and rosaries (that belonged
to the Fourth Dalai Lama and other lamas), but I was unable
to distinguish between them! When he left the room I heard
him tell the people outside that I had successfully passed the
tests. Later, when he became my tutor, he would often admonish
me and say: “You must work hard, since you were unable
to recognize the objects!”
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:15 pm

Caz wrote:I find this part interesting it has previously been suggested that the reincarnation lineage of the Dalai lama was tampered with.
So if exactly he was a great terton who was he a reincarnation of because this certainly suggests that it wasnt the previous 4th ?


I mentioned before, Trisrong Detsen, etc.
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http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Caz » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:02 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Caz wrote:I find this part interesting it has previously been suggested that the reincarnation lineage of the Dalai lama was tampered with.
So if exactly he was a great terton who was he a reincarnation of because this certainly suggests that it wasnt the previous 4th ?


I mentioned before, Trisrong Detsen, etc.


Interesting so I wonder what happend to the actual 4th Dalai lama ? If the 5th was actually a reincarnation of Trisrong Detsen and not actually avaloketishvara then this would seem to explain a but from a histroical POV. Cheers for clearing that up Namdrol. :namaste:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
Caz
 
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:04 pm

Caz wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Caz wrote:I find this part interesting it has previously been suggested that the reincarnation lineage of the Dalai lama was tampered with.
So if exactly he was a great terton who was he a reincarnation of because this certainly suggests that it wasnt the previous 4th ?


I mentioned before, Trisrong Detsen, etc.


Interesting so I wonder what happend to the actual 4th Dalai lama ? If the 5th was actually a reincarnation of Trisrong Detsen and not actually avaloketishvara then this would seem to explain a but from a histroical POV. Cheers for clearing that up Namdrol. :namaste:


Well, the Fifth also claimed to be the incarnation of Songtsen Gampo as well as being the emanation of Avalokiteshvara. The idea that the Dalai Lamas are emanations of Avalokiteshvara begins with him.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Caz » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:12 pm

Well this would certainly explain the great interest held by the 5th in Dzogchen and so forth.
So any clue as to what happened to the genuine 4th Dalai lama Yonten Gyatso with regards to where his reincarnation was or is ? :namaste:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Stewart » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:39 pm

Hey Namdrol,

So even though he never taught Dzogchen, do sources confirm he did practice it? Is there any other texts that directly mention Tsongkhapa's view on Dzogchen? If so what are his comments?

Does Atisha speak much about Dzogchen? Comments?

Also I am interested to know about Milarepa's Dzogchen Gurus, but that's maybe for another thread.

Best wishes,

s.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:23 pm

samdrup wrote:Hey Namdrol,

So even though he never taught Dzogchen, do sources confirm he did practice it? Is there any other texts that directly mention Tsongkhapa's view on Dzogchen? If so what are his comments?



No, he never practiced Dzogchen. His views on Dzogchen tended to follow the standard Sarma discomfort with Dzogchen, and he refuted some Dzogchen ideas that he felt were too close to so called "Hashang" view.

Does Atisha speak much about Dzogchen? Comments?


Not at all.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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