Great! Thank youHayagriva wrote:This is very similar to this teaching from Padmasambhava:Tsongkhapafan wrote:Milarepa said:
You should know what all appearances are the nature of mind,
Mind is the nature of emptiness.
This unites the Madhyamaka and Yogacara views together, which is what is needed to attain enlightenment.
Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Are objects and mind a duality?
The master replied:
The objects seen are mind's display.
The many displays are the play of your mind.
And while they are empty in essence,
The objects you see can dissolve and need not be rejected.
Firmly resolve that objects and mind are not two.
Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
- Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
You can dance on books all day,
but don't neglect going out to play;
you can see but you cannot say,
rainbows in space simply fade away.
-- Namdrol
but don't neglect going out to play;
you can see but you cannot say,
rainbows in space simply fade away.
-- Namdrol
Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
well spoken, and nice to see you by the wayNamdrol wrote:You can dance on books all day,
but don't neglect going out to play;
you can see but you cannot say,
rainbows in space simply fade away.
-- Namdrol
Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Namdrol wrote:You can dance on books all day,
but don't neglect going out to play;
you can see but you cannot say,
rainbows in space simply fade away.
-- Namdrol
What???
Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Namdrol wrote:You can dance on books all day,
but don't neglect going out to play;
you can see but you cannot say,
rainbows in space simply fade away.
-- Namdrol
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
I got my head torn off for saying the same thing here http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 194#p25250" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; funny old thing the mind!
Last edited by Grigoris on Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
- cloudburst
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
I agree it seems clear that Lama Tsongkhapa received Dzogchen instructions from his Nyingma lama. I have never heard that he passed them on.... Conebeck, you say there are indications that he taught Dzogchen, but not publicly... would you care to share those indications with us, please?
As for whos interpretation of the madhyamaka views is "correct," can't we just say they are different, or function in different ways? Otherwise, I don't see how one could claim the mantle of a non-sectarian view? There are points that may be disputed, but if we try to say one another's views are incorrect, I think we are off the mark by quite a bit.
We must be realistic in admitting that there are many different interpretations of these texts, it is not a simple matter of "reading them" and gaining clear certainty, is it? Otherwise why would there be so many respected masters debating the same texts? Orthodoxy is relative to those in whom you impute authority...what is orthodox in Kagyu is unorthodox in Sakya, and so on...Nangwa wrote: Nonsense again.
Read the original texts and you will find that this interpretation is unorthodox at the very least.
That doesn't necessarily diminish its effectiveness for individuals of certain leanings etc. but to assert that it is an absolute goes way too far.
As for whos interpretation of the madhyamaka views is "correct," can't we just say they are different, or function in different ways? Otherwise, I don't see how one could claim the mantle of a non-sectarian view? There are points that may be disputed, but if we try to say one another's views are incorrect, I think we are off the mark by quite a bit.
It is interesting in the context of this discussion to not that Jigme Lingpa himself understood and presented the view from the point of view of Je Tsongkhapa's presentation, so we must accept that the view of Lama Tsongkhapa and the view of Dzogchen are harmonious at very least.I was mistaken about the Jigme Lingpa connection with this particular lama.
- conebeckham
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- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
This came from Karl Brunnholzl, I think....from "Center of the Sunlit Sky," if I recall correctly....but I don't think there's any more information than that in the book itself. You'd have to track down Karl, and see who his sources were.Conebeck, you say there are indications that he taught Dzogchen, but not publicly... would you care to share those indications with us, please?
Cone Beckham
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
- cloudburst
- Posts: 400
- Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:49 pm
Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
conebeckham wrote:This came from Karl Brunnholzl, I think....from "Center of the Sunlit Sky," if I recall correctly....but I don't think there's any more information than that in the book itself. You'd have to track down Karl, and see who his sources were.Conebeck, you say there are indications that he taught Dzogchen, but not publicly... would you care to share those indications with us, please?
Cone Beckham
Interesting. As it turns out, I have that book right next to me as I have been reading it and identifying many incorrect statements by Herr B about Je Tsongkhapa's view. It dos not mention in the index where one might find such a comment (one citation of "dzogchen" only), could you clarify?
Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
You need to qualify this -- Jigme Lingpa presented Prasangika Madhyamaka in terms derived from Tsongkhapa since he was in fact educated with a Gelug yigcha.cloudburst wrote:
It is interesting in the context of this discussion to not that Jigme Lingpa himself understood and presented the view from the point of view of Je Tsongkhapa's presentation, so we must accept that the view of Lama Tsongkhapa and the view of Dzogchen are harmonious at very least.
While he opined that from an analytical point of view that Dzogchen and Prasangika could be regarded as equivalent in terms of how they presented freedom from proliferation, he clarified that Dzogchen is experiential, whilst prasangika is wholly analytical.
- conebeckham
- Posts: 5715
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Perhaps when I get home I can look for it...it may have been in another of Brunnholzl's book, now that I think of it though...possibly in his translation of Nagarjuna's "Praise to the Dharmadhatu." In any case, I distinctly recall thinking "hmm, that's interesting, wonder if there's more info....." and searching footnotes, etc., only to find nothing further.
I've never felt the need to bother any Geshe or Khenpo about it, but if you're interested, it would be a good question to ask, eh?
I've never felt the need to bother any Geshe or Khenpo about it, but if you're interested, it would be a good question to ask, eh?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
- cloudburst
- Posts: 400
- Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:49 pm
Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
It's an interesting opinion. Often these things just come down to the way you slice the pie. Prasangika is indeed an analytical method, but one could also say that the prasangika methodology produces an experiential understanding. So prasangika was both created from and is productive of experience of the Ultimate.Namdrol wrote:You need to qualify this -- Jigme Lingpa presented Prasangika Madhyamaka in terms derived from Tsongkhapa since he was in fact educated with a Gelug yigcha.cloudburst wrote:
It is interesting in the context of this discussion to not that Jigme Lingpa himself understood and presented the view from the point of view of Je Tsongkhapa's presentation, so we must accept that the view of Lama Tsongkhapa and the view of Dzogchen are harmonious at very least.
While he opined that from an analytical point of view that Dzogchen and Prasangika could be regarded as equivalent in terms of how they presented freedom from proliferation, he clarified that Dzogchen is experiential, whilst prasangika is wholly analytical.
Jigme Lingpa's presentation of emptiness in Treasury of Precious Qualities is wholly concordant with the presentation of Je Tsongkhapa. Your useage may seem a little unclear, as "derived from" could be taken to mean he came up with terms that were derived as part of a process that began with Gelug yigcha, whereas, and I am sure this is what you mean, the terms he used were taken directly from these yigcha and pressed into service without adulteration.
- cloudburst
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- Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:49 pm
Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
I will admit, If I had an opportunity to discuss with a person of learning, this is not high on my list of points of interest.conebeckham wrote:Perhaps when I get home I can look for it...it may have been in another of Brunnholzl's book, now that I think of it though...possibly in his translation of Nagarjuna's "Praise to the Dharmadhatu." In any case, I distinctly recall thinking "hmm, that's interesting, wonder if there's more info....." and searching footnotes, etc., only to find nothing further.
I've never felt the need to bother any Geshe or Khenpo about it, but if you're interested, it would be a good question to ask, eh?
Just wanted to clarify the extent and/or credibility of these "indication" that Je Rinpoche taught Dzogchen. I am not claiming he did not, as it is notoriously difficult to prove a neagtive, but let's just say that so far, only hearsay supports the conclusion? Are you happy with that?
- conebeckham
- Posts: 5715
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Sure!
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
- cloudburst
- Posts: 400
- Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:49 pm
Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
conebeckham wrote:Sure!
Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
It is not the same as Dzogchen.cloudburst wrote:
It's an interesting opinion. Often these things just come down to the way you slice the pie. Prasangika is indeed an analytical method, but one could also say that the prasangika methodology produces an experiential understanding. So prasangika was both created from and is productive of experience of the Ultimate.
As far as I am concerned, saying that view of Dzogchen and the prasanga view of Tsongkhapa are the same goes too far, is overly simplistic at best. Jigme Lingpa does not go this far at all.Jigme Lingpa's presentation of emptiness in Treasury of Precious Qualities is wholly concordant with the presentation of Je Tsongkhapa. Your useage may seem a little unclear, as "derived from" could be taken to mean he came up with terms that were derived as part of a process that began with Gelug yigcha, whereas, and I am sure this is what you mean, the terms he used were taken directly from these yigcha and pressed into service without adulteration.
- cloudburst
- Posts: 400
- Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:49 pm
Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
I, for one, never said it was, nor do I believe it to be.Namdrol wrote:It is not the same as Dzogchen.cloudburst wrote:
It's an interesting opinion. Often these things just come down to the way you slice the pie. Prasangika is indeed an analytical method, but one could also say that the prasangika methodology produces an experiential understanding. So prasangika was both created from and is productive of experience of the Ultimate.
Personally, I agree, and I think if you read what I wrote above you can see I never said that view of Dzogchen is same as prasangika of Tsongkhapa, althogh among those who feel they are same are Dalai Lama and Jamgon Kongtrul the great.Namdrol wrote:cloudburst wrote:As far as I am concerned, saying that view of Dzogchen and the prasanga view of Tsongkhapa are the same goes too far, is overly simplistic at best. Jigme Lingpa does not go this far at all.Jigme Lingpa's presentation of emptiness in Treasury of Precious Qualities is wholly concordant with the presentation of Je Tsongkhapa. Your useage may seem a little unclear, as "derived from" could be taken to mean he came up with terms that were derived as part of a process that began with Gelug yigcha, whereas, and I am sure this is what you mean, the terms he used were taken directly from these yigcha and pressed into service without adulteration.
I wonder if you feel that very subtle mind of clear light and view of Dzogchen are same? If not, what is difference?
Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
If by "subtle mind of clear light" you mean an "uncontrived momentary awareness" (ma bcos pa shes pa skad cig ma), then the view is similar.cloudburst wrote: I wonder if you feel that very subtle mind of clear light and view of Dzogchen are same? If not, what is difference?
But prasanga can never lead to that so called "subtle mind of clear light" -- it lacks the method.
- cloudburst
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- Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:49 pm
Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
I suppose I do not know if this is what I mean, as this terminology falls outside my experience. How is this uncontrived momentary awareness different from my moment to moment uncontrived awareness?Namdrol wrote:If by "subtle mind of clear light" you mean an "uncontrived momentary awareness" (ma bcos pa shes pa skad cig ma), then the view is similar.cloudburst wrote: I wonder if you feel that very subtle mind of clear light and view of Dzogchen are same? If not, what is difference?
But prasanga can never lead to that so called "subtle mind of clear light" -- it lacks the method.
I agree, prasangika will not lead to clear light without application of supplementary methods.
Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
The difference is summed up nicely by "Parting From The Four Attachments "If grasping arises, it is no the view."cloudburst wrote: I suppose I do not know if this is what I mean, as this terminology falls outside my experience. How is this uncontrived momentary awareness different from my moment to moment uncontrived awareness?
N