Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby heart » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:53 pm

Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:You should read Karmey's article.


Ok, I did, and he is not saying that he isn't the Dalai Lama:

"‘The official Tsawa Kachu of the Ganden Palace showed me statues and rosaries (that belonged to the Fourth Dalai Lama and other lamas), but I was unable to distinguish between them! When he left the room I heard him tell the people outside that I had successfully passed the tests. Later, when he became my tutor, he would often admon- ish me and say: “You must work hard, since you were unable to recognize the objects!”"

You might want to interpret it like that, or not.

/magnus


The Dalai Lama was never a tulku lineage like the Karmapas were once i.e. self-recognized.

So, I don't think that the fifth Dalai Lama is actually the reincarnation of the fourth. But I do think the 6th, 13th and 14th are the reincarnations of the fifth.

N


That is an interesting train of thought. :smile:

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Caz » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:59 pm

Amazing isnt it mutliple reincarnations of the Dalai lama sharing the role.
I had heard there was a secret account of how the incarnation lineage actually was In the secret Biography of Guntang Rinpoche. :namaste:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby username » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:25 am

Not only the Dalai Lama is a true rebirth but the Karmapa rebirths and tulku lineage is true too and they both are emanations of Chenresig and devotees of Dzogchen teachings and Je Tsong Khapa and their activities will manifest in each individual case fully, all in good time! Om Mani Padme Hung Hri
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Caz » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:44 am

Still regardless of Je Tsongkhapa's later disciples one would have thought Je Rinpoche would have provided direct teachings on Dzogchen to his disciples if he though Dzogchen was appropriate. :popcorn:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby username » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:21 am

Caz wrote:Still regardless of Je Tsongkhapa's later disciples one would have thought Je Rinpoche would have provided direct teachings on Dzogchen to his disciples if he though Dzogchen was appropriate.

Gurus keep some of their practices secret. We don't know what Tsongkhapa's secret practices were. Gelugs practice of Dzogchen is historic as proven with the Dala lamas' secret practice temple of Dzogchen and other masters. What is new, as a cult, in very recent history is a few saying taking teachings from other schools, or now saying from most Gelug masters obedient under the glorious 14th Dalai Lama, is forbidden. This is a new abomination and anti-Buddhist. Also saying, without reference, Tsongkhapa did not think Dzogchen practice is appropriate is an insult in the Dzogchen sub-forum. He did not include many practices he thought very valid in his new monastic system for different reasons. One of his root gurus was a Nyingma Dzogchen master.

Finally what accomplishments do we see from the sectarian enemies of Dzogchen or their lineage gurus (gurus' former gurus, ie: the 14th Dalai Lama)? Nothing. We know persistence in breaking such a major samaya ends up in vajra hell. Even current samaya breakers still have lineage samaya via their gurus to the magnificent 14th Dala Lama. While Dzogchen tertons and Dzogchen masters leave foot and hand prints in granite like butter, have terma descend from sky to them in front of crowds, melt rocks to extract terma, shrink or disappear into rainbow bodies and numerous other public miracles in large numbers to this very day. In fact a recent master whose body dissolved fully into rainbow lights several days after death in Tibet a few years ago was a Gelug lama. His rainbow body as his students attested was due to his Dzogchen practice of Dudjom Tersar as they told western investigators. The real accomplishment is recognizing the nature of mind and complete enlightenment which will also serve beings. So considering where the sectarian major-samaya breakers are going to end up and for such long times, we need to pity them. Something they need to chew on day and night, even in dreams. :popcorn:
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:02 pm

username wrote: Also saying, without reference, Tsongkhapa did not think Dzogchen practice is appropriate is an insult in the Dzogchen sub-forum.


Tsongkhapa criticized Dzogchen in his commentary on Madhyamaka-avatara for abandoning the two truths.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Caz » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:41 pm

username wrote:
Caz wrote:Still regardless of Je Tsongkhapa's later disciples one would have thought Je Rinpoche would have provided direct teachings on Dzogchen to his disciples if he though Dzogchen was appropriate.

Gurus keep some of their practices secret. We don't know what Tsongkhapa's secret practices were. Gelugs practice of Dzogchen is historic as proven with the Dala lamas' secret practice temple of Dzogchen and other masters. What is new, as a cult, in very recent history is a few saying taking teachings from other schools, or now saying from most Gelug masters obedient under the glorious 14th Dalai Lama, is forbidden. This is a new abomination and anti-Buddhist. Also saying, without reference, Tsongkhapa did not think Dzogchen practice is appropriate is an insult in the Dzogchen sub-forum. He did not include many practices he thought very valid in his new monastic system for different reasons. One of his root gurus was a Nyingma Dzogchen master.

Finally what accomplishments do we see from the sectarian enemies of Dzogchen or their lineage gurus (gurus' former gurus, ie: the 14th Dalai Lama)? Nothing. We know persistence in breaking such a major samaya ends up in vajra hell. Even current samaya breakers still have lineage samaya via their gurus to the magnificent 14th Dala Lama. While Dzogchen tertons and Dzogchen masters leave foot and hand prints in granite like butter, have terma descend from sky to them in front of crowds, melt rocks to extract terma, shrink or disappear into rainbow bodies and numerous other public miracles in large numbers to this very day. In fact a recent master whose body dissolved fully into rainbow lights several days after death in Tibet a few years ago was a Gelug lama. His rainbow body as his students attested was due to his Dzogchen practice of Dudjom Tersar as they told western investigators. The real accomplishment is recognizing the nature of mind and complete enlightenment which will also serve beings. So considering where the sectarian major-samaya breakers are going to end up and for such long times, we need to pity them. Something they need to chew on day and night, even in dreams. :popcorn:


I wasnt trying to be insulting by saying he didnt consider it appropriate rather that perhapes the early gelug under Je Rinpoches guidence where not perhapes karmically attunded to practise Dzogchen. :namaste:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Caz » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:44 pm

Namdrol wrote:
username wrote: Also saying, without reference, Tsongkhapa did not think Dzogchen practice is appropriate is an insult in the Dzogchen sub-forum.


Tsongkhapa criticized Dzogchen in his commentary on Madhyamaka-avatara for abandoning the two truths.


There we go then apparently there is factual basis for there being no Gelug Dzogchen practise because Tsongkhapa in a manner of speaking didnt consider it appropriate.
Thanks again Namdrol it seems you always mange to provide something of interest. :namaste:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby username » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:51 pm

Namdrol wrote:
username wrote: Also saying, without reference, Tsongkhapa did not think Dzogchen practice is appropriate is an insult in the Dzogchen sub-forum.


Tsongkhapa criticized Dzogchen in his commentary on Madhyamaka-avatara for abandoning the two truths.


I know as he claimed the two accumulations only come from the two truth system but that's his opinion amongst other subjects like Bhava Shentong etc.. There are numerous disagreements amongst historic major figures. But the point is he, like them, was a scholar not a sectarian cultist. The later violence against Jonangs or Gorampa's book was wrong as is the new sectarian fatwa by a few today that forbids their victims from taking teachings even from the majority of Gelug lamas because they are loyal to the Dalai Lama, never mind other schools or Dzogchen. Differences of opinions, for example I belive in the Karmapa tulku line as valid, someone might not because of what a teacher told him, I wouldn't force my view on him. Or revived Shentong or Jonangs or Bons. I am open minded and welcome variety. This is the free tradition of Tibet which lets people take various schools' teachers and have debates and have intellectual disagreements sans sectarianism or force. Tsongkhapa was an intellectual amongst other things not violent and he revered his Nyingma guru. Intent comes through.
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Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Stewart » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:04 pm

Hey Namdrol,

Could you please give us a brief overview of Sakya Pandita's view of Dzogchen, also Gampopa?

Also, when you have time, could you talk more about Milarepa's Dzogchen Gurus/practice.

Many thanks,

s
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby username » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:15 pm

Caz wrote:
username wrote:
Caz wrote:Still regardless of Je Tsongkhapa's later disciples one would have thought Je Rinpoche would have provided direct teachings on Dzogchen to his disciples if he though Dzogchen was appropriate.

Gurus keep some of their practices secret. We don't know what Tsongkhapa's secret practices were. Gelugs practice of Dzogchen is historic as proven with the Dala lamas' secret practice temple of Dzogchen and other masters. What is new, as a cult, in very recent history is a few saying taking teachings from other schools, or now saying from most Gelug masters obedient under the glorious 14th Dalai Lama, is forbidden. This is a new abomination and anti-Buddhist. Also saying, without reference, Tsongkhapa did not think Dzogchen practice is appropriate is an insult in the Dzogchen sub-forum. He did not include many practices he thought very valid in his new monastic system for different reasons. One of his root gurus was a Nyingma Dzogchen master.

Finally what accomplishments do we see from the sectarian enemies of Dzogchen or their lineage gurus (gurus' former gurus, ie: the 14th Dalai Lama)? Nothing. We know persistence in breaking such a major samaya ends up in vajra hell. Even current samaya breakers still have lineage samaya via their gurus to the magnificent 14th Dala Lama. While Dzogchen tertons and Dzogchen masters leave foot and hand prints in granite like butter, have terma descend from sky to them in front of crowds, melt rocks to extract terma, shrink or disappear into rainbow bodies and numerous other public miracles in large numbers to this very day. In fact a recent master whose body dissolved fully into rainbow lights several days after death in Tibet a few years ago was a Gelug lama. His rainbow body as his students attested was due to his Dzogchen practice of Dudjom Tersar as they told western investigators. The real accomplishment is recognizing the nature of mind and complete enlightenment which will also serve beings. So considering where the sectarian major-samaya breakers are going to end up and for such long times, we need to pity them. Something they need to chew on day and night, even in dreams. :popcorn:


I wasnt trying to be insulting by saying he didnt consider it appropriate rather that perhapes the early gelug under Je Rinpoches guidence where not perhapes karmically attunded to practise Dzogchen. :namaste:


That is a reasonable statement however one can change one's Karma for better on the path and that's the aim of living. Personally I think without the 4 schools, and even old and New Bon, we wouldn't have so much heritage and more importantly so many realized beings on the path dispersed through the universe who also help others. Tsongkhapa's intent and fruits were noble. The mistakes occur by followers of all schools. As with the hateful campaign attacking the Dalai Lama because of his Dzogchen practice and what he doesn't practice, both attacks unjust historically as proven, we have to be honest as the rightly outraged Tibetans are by what they witness being done both inside and outside Tibet at this crucial time by the same people. The point is when one's house is on fire and terrible acts are being done, one doesn't go next door suggesting new flower arrangements.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:19 pm

samdrup wrote:Hey Namdrol,

Could you please give us a brief overview of Sakya Pandita's view of Dzogchen, also Gampopa?

Also, when you have time, could you talk more about Milarepa's Dzogchen Gurus/practice.

Many thanks,

s


Sapan's view of Dzogchen was that it was the name of the completion stage practice of the Nyingma school. As far as I know, Sapan had only received sems sde.

He rejected a so called "pure dzogchen" as an independent yana.

Gampopa considered Dzogchen to be a bit one sided also, too much emphasis on emptiness.

There is a paper written about Milarepa's gurus, I think by Trungram Rinpoche while he was at harvard -- look for that.

N
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Stewart » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:48 pm

Thanks Namdrol,

The only Harvard paper I could find by Trungram Rinpoche is called 'Gampopa, the Monk and the Yogi, His Life and Teachings' It has a section about Milarepa, I haven't had a chance to go through it yet. Is this the paper you mean or is there another one, more specific to Milarepa?

best wishes,

s.
Last edited by Stewart on Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:56 pm

samdrup wrote:Thanks Namdrol,

I found the Harvard paper by Trungram Rinpoche called 'Gampopa, the Monk and the Yogi, His Life and Teachings' I haven't had a chance to go through it yet. Is this the paper you mean or is there another one, more specific to Milarepa?

best wishes,

s.



Maybe it is another paper I read.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Stewart » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:58 pm

Okay thanks,

The Gampopa paper looks very interesting anyway, so I will read it. If you remember the other please let me know.

s.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:14 am

samdrup wrote:Okay thanks,

The Gampopa paper looks very interesting anyway, so I will read it. If you remember the other please let me know.

s.
Do you think you could scan it or post us the link to the publication please?
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Stewart » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:15 pm

s.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby ratna » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:15 pm

Dan Martin, The Early Education of Milarepa: http://www.thlib.org/static/reprints/jts/JTS_02_03.pdf

R
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:22 pm

ratna wrote:Dan Martin, The Early Education of Milarepa: http://www.thlib.org/static/reprints/jts/JTS_02_03.pdf

R



That's the one.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:46 pm

In the Lamrim Chenmo, Tsongkhapa criticises those who follow the view of Hashang (believing that conceptual minds, whether virtuous or non-virtuous are harmful and are to be abandoned in meditation). He clearly states that the ultimate view that leads to liberation is arrived at by analysis and that the mind that realizes emptiness is initially conceptual.

Conclusion: any system that abandons conceptuality, seeing it as faulty, will never lead to liberation and enlightenment.
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