Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Enochian » Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:30 pm

Namdrol wrote:
samdrup wrote:
Does Atisha speak much about Dzogchen? Comments?


Not at all.



Why not?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby heart » Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:54 pm

Caz wrote:Well this would certainly explain the great interest held by the 5th in Dzogchen and so forth.
So any clue as to what happened to the genuine 4th Dalai lama Yonten Gyatso with regards to where his reincarnation was or is ? :namaste:


The 5th is the genuine reincarnation, why wouldn't he be?

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby conebeckham » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:56 am

I'm not so sure, frankly, that Tsong Khapa didn't practice Dzokchen. It's clear he received teachings. There may be no written record of him transmitting Dzokchen, or even practicing it...so it's all speculation, of course. But........


As for the 5th Dalai Lama, he was the "rebirth" of the 4th, even though he couldn't identify the objects...I think that is the accepted position. No on is saying that there was "another" 5th Dalai Lama, as far as I know.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Caz » Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:15 pm

conebeckham wrote:I'm not so sure, frankly, that Tsong Khapa didn't practice Dzokchen. It's clear he received teachings. There may be no written record of him transmitting Dzokchen, or even practicing it...so it's all speculation, of course. But........


As for the 5th Dalai Lama, he was the "rebirth" of the 4th, even though he couldn't identify the objects...I think that is the accepted position. No on is saying that there was "another" 5th Dalai Lama, as far as I know.


Its an interesting subject for certain, Its odd he could not identify any objects as this is one of the most commonly accepted methods of testing so the article has me wondering whether political issues at the time would have prompted candidate pushing regardless of their be genuine or not.
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby username » Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:38 pm

The 5th was the greatest as all historians and Tibetans agree, except the mandala of the samaya breaking demon he sent down the river to Do village and those living hellbounds follow him still in breaking their samayas to their guru or guru's guru that is the magnificient 14th. A very high enlightened being's reincarnation can mix with various other buddhas. So the 14th is quite a few: the 13th, King Trisong, Chenresig, Pundarika and maybe more and why he is so important at this historic juncture. Reting Rinpoche who was a Siddha knew this as did the 14th Dalai Lama's father both of whom were obstacles against one of the worst evil mandalas on earth.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby heart » Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:38 pm

Caz wrote:
conebeckham wrote:I'm not so sure, frankly, that Tsong Khapa didn't practice Dzokchen. It's clear he received teachings. There may be no written record of him transmitting Dzokchen, or even practicing it...so it's all speculation, of course. But........


As for the 5th Dalai Lama, he was the "rebirth" of the 4th, even though he couldn't identify the objects...I think that is the accepted position. No on is saying that there was "another" 5th Dalai Lama, as far as I know.


Its an interesting subject for certain, Its odd he could not identify any objects as this is one of the most commonly accepted methods of testing so the article has me wondering whether political issues at the time would have prompted candidate pushing regardless of their be genuine or not.


I see you share this ideas with the Western Shugden Society. Anyway I don't think you know very much about how the recognition of Tulkus are done, I sure don't know. The fact is that there isn't a single way of recognize them, it happens in manifold ways. Anyway you certainly don't know what objects he was presented to recognize. It might not have been his own objects, maybe someone with political ambitions wanted to cast a shadow over his recognition as a tulku of the 4th. And maybe someone with political ambitions are feeding you doubts about the 5th in order to give credit to their own version of history.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:56 pm

heart wrote:
I see you share this ideas with the Western Shugden Society.

/magnus



Hi Magnus:

Actually, the Fifth Dalai Lama notes in his own autobiography that his recognition was faked. What people do with this information is something else altogether.

However, there is actually no real reason to presume that a line of tulkus is the reincarnation of the same person. Case in point -- Trungpa Rinpoche told some friends of mine that he was not in fact the reincarnation of previous Trungpa, but was in fact that reincarnation of the previous Trungpa's attendant. Now, I have no idea if he was f%^ing with my friends or not, but they were long time students of his, and one had been his "sku sung", his personal attendant for some time, and this is what they told me.

There is also the issue of the sixth Dalai Lama and the Seventh Dalai Lama living at the same time. The sixth was not killed. He was banned to Amdo. His autobiography has appeared. The present HHDL has indicated that he feels a strongest affinity to the second, fifth, sixth, and thirteenth Dalai Lamas, who all have strong connections with the Nyingma practice.

N
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby username » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:07 am

The maras' deviants rise to power was new and short as they came to power only just before Tibet was lost by them. No coincidence. No previous Dalai Lama was initiated into their demonic hellbound cult. The Dalai Lamas' old Secret practice Temple in Potala's little lake's garden, dedicated to the practice of Dzogchen:
http://www.asianart.com/articles/baker/index.html

Potala waiting for Kundun, the 14th Dalai Lama's return:
http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/7 ... Potala.jpg
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Caz » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:39 pm

Certainly is very interesting if even his own biography says so cheers namdrol. :namaste:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby heart » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:56 pm

Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:
I see you share this ideas with the Western Shugden Society.

/magnus



Hi Magnus:

Actually, the Fifth Dalai Lama notes in his own autobiography that his recognition was faked. What people do with this information is something else altogether.



The recognition being faked don't exactly mean that 5th is saying that he isn't the correct tulku of the Dalai Lama. Or does he say "I'm not the Dalai Lama"?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:33 pm

heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:
I see you share this ideas with the Western Shugden Society.

/magnus



Hi Magnus:

Actually, the Fifth Dalai Lama notes in his own autobiography that his recognition was faked. What people do with this information is something else altogether.



The recognition being faked don't exactly mean that 5th is saying that he isn't the correct tulku of the Dalai Lama. Or does he say "I'm not the Dalai Lama"?

/magnus


You should read Karmey's article.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby mudra » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:30 pm

Namdrol wrote:
There is also the issue of the sixth Dalai Lama and the Seventh Dalai Lama living at the same time. The sixth was not killed. He was banned to Amdo. His autobiography has appeared. The present HHDL has indicated that he feels a strongest affinity to the second, fifth, sixth, and thirteenth Dalai Lamas, who all have strong connections with the Nyingma practice.

N


So that autobiography has finally been published? Who published it? I heard about the manuscript several years ago from my lama, who said that apparently after quite some time in what is today inner Mongolia (his Mongol 'executioners' released him after they were a good distance from Lhasa) the 6th returned to central Tibet, and that the 6th and 7th actually saw and recognized each other at least once in Lhasa, but Rinpoche was not sure if they actually talked.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:46 pm

mudra wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
There is also the issue of the sixth Dalai Lama and the Seventh Dalai Lama living at the same time. The sixth was not killed. He was banned to Amdo. His autobiography has appeared. The present HHDL has indicated that he feels a strongest affinity to the second, fifth, sixth, and thirteenth Dalai Lamas, who all have strong connections with the Nyingma practice.

N


So that autobiography has finally been published? Who published it? I heard about the manuscript several years ago from my lama, who said that apparently after quite some time in what is today inner Mongolia (his Mongol 'executioners' released him after they were a good distance from Lhasa) the 6th returned to central Tibet, and that the 6th and 7th actually saw and recognized each other at least once in Lhasa, but Rinpoche was not sure if they actually talked.


http://www.wickhamsmith.net/sixthdalai/sixthdalai.html
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby username » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:48 pm

Apart from the previously mentioned reincarnation sources of the current glorious 14th Dalai Lama, Lodi Gyari Rinpoche also recognized him partly as emanation of Padmasambhava too. Lodi Gyari Rinpoche is the long time distinguished diplomatic envoy of Kundun to Washington D.C., founder of the Tibetan Youth Congress, hero amongst Tibetan liberation movement, a highly traditionally educated Nyingma scholar and the tulku of the great Khenchen Jampal Dewe Nyima who was one of the main gurus of the last Dudjom Rinpoche. He wrote:

GYAL KUN NYINGJÉI DAK NYI CHEN RÉ ZIK
You are both Avalokiteshvara, the embodiment of all the buddhas’ compassion,
TOK MÉ TRINLÉ TSAL DZÉ PEMA JUNG
And Padmakara, the one who is unobstructed in powerful enlightened action,
CHIK DÜ NGOWO GANG CHEN TEN DRÖI GÖN
Protector of the teachings and beings in the Land of Snows,
TEN DZIN GYATSO SHYAP LA SOLWA DEP
Tenzin Gyatso—to you we pray.
The one who holds the name of an incarnation from Lumorap, Pema Lodrö Gyaltsen, had an experience of recognizing the lama, and gave this to Gelek Namgyal in the hidden land of Sikkim in the sacred place of Pemayangtse, on the auspicious date of the 25th day of the second month, Fire Dog year (23rd April 2006).

Back on the topic of Dzogchen within Je Tsongkhapa's lineage, specially the Dalai Lamas, the current Dzogchen master of the Dalai Lama is Kyabje Trulshik Rinpoche. Before him, the Dalai Lama's Dzogchen master was Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche who wrote this to his disciple and light of the world:

TONG NYI NYING JÉ ZUNG DU JUKPÉ LAM
You make the path that combines emptiness and compassion grow clearer and clearer,
CHÉ CHER SAL DZÉ GANG CHEN TEN DRÖI GÖN
Lord of the teachings and beings in the Snowy Land of Tibet,
CHAK NA PÉMO TENDZIN GYATSO LA
To you, the Lotus Holder Tenzin Gyatso,
SOLWA DEP SO SHYÉ DÖN LHUN DRUP SHOK
I pray, may all your wishes be spontaneously fulfilled.
( -Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche)

viewtopic.php?f=43&t=146
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby mudra » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:32 am

Namdrol-lags, thank you for the link.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Caz » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:47 am

Ah well this always explains the close proximity HH Dalai lama has to Dzogchen teachings and Nyingma practises if he is a part emination of Padmasambhava as well.
:namaste:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby username » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:33 am

As proven above the historic most secret practice temple of Dalai Lamas was dedicated to Dzogchen. One of the main few gurus of Je Tsong Khapa was Nyingma. And of course Je Tsong Khapa was an emanation of Padmasambhava too. These are all small, in the past and won battles. We are busy :yinyang:
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby heart » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:31 am

Namdrol wrote:You should read Karmey's article.


Ok, I did, and he is not saying that he isn't the Dalai Lama:

"‘The official Tsawa Kachu of the Ganden Palace showed me statues and rosaries (that belonged to the Fourth Dalai Lama and other lamas), but I was unable to distinguish between them! When he left the room I heard him tell the people outside that I had successfully passed the tests. Later, when he became my tutor, he would often admon- ish me and say: “You must work hard, since you were unable to recognize the objects!”"

You might want to interpret it like that, or not.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby username » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:41 am

Some people don't believe in tulku lines, not just the minor ones many of which are expedient and not true but they dismiss the major lines including the Dalai Lamas and Karmapas altogether and other major tulkus too. They are a very small negligible minority. It is their right. But also in debate or discussion it is any body's right to ask them to come out clean with their opinion and not beat about the bush.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:02 pm

heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:You should read Karmey's article.


Ok, I did, and he is not saying that he isn't the Dalai Lama:

"‘The official Tsawa Kachu of the Ganden Palace showed me statues and rosaries (that belonged to the Fourth Dalai Lama and other lamas), but I was unable to distinguish between them! When he left the room I heard him tell the people outside that I had successfully passed the tests. Later, when he became my tutor, he would often admon- ish me and say: “You must work hard, since you were unable to recognize the objects!”"

You might want to interpret it like that, or not.

/magnus


The Dalai Lama was never a tulku lineage like the Karmapas were once i.e. self-recognized.

So, I don't think that the fifth Dalai Lama is actually the reincarnation of the fourth. But I do think the 6th, 13th and 14th are the reincarnations of the fifth.

N

N
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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