Namdrol wrote:samdrup wrote:Not at all.Does Atisha speak much about Dzogchen? Comments?
Why not?
Namdrol wrote:samdrup wrote:Not at all.Does Atisha speak much about Dzogchen? Comments?
The 5th is the genuine reincarnation, why wouldn't he be?Caz wrote:Well this would certainly explain the great interest held by the 5th in Dzogchen and so forth.
So any clue as to what happened to the genuine 4th Dalai lama Yonten Gyatso with regards to where his reincarnation was or is ?
Its an interesting subject for certain, Its odd he could not identify any objects as this is one of the most commonly accepted methods of testing so the article has me wondering whether political issues at the time would have prompted candidate pushing regardless of their be genuine or not.conebeckham wrote:I'm not so sure, frankly, that Tsong Khapa didn't practice Dzokchen. It's clear he received teachings. There may be no written record of him transmitting Dzokchen, or even practicing it...so it's all speculation, of course. But........
As for the 5th Dalai Lama, he was the "rebirth" of the 4th, even though he couldn't identify the objects...I think that is the accepted position. No on is saying that there was "another" 5th Dalai Lama, as far as I know.
I see you share this ideas with the Western Shugden Society. Anyway I don't think you know very much about how the recognition of Tulkus are done, I sure don't know. The fact is that there isn't a single way of recognize them, it happens in manifold ways. Anyway you certainly don't know what objects he was presented to recognize. It might not have been his own objects, maybe someone with political ambitions wanted to cast a shadow over his recognition as a tulku of the 4th. And maybe someone with political ambitions are feeding you doubts about the 5th in order to give credit to their own version of history.Caz wrote:Its an interesting subject for certain, Its odd he could not identify any objects as this is one of the most commonly accepted methods of testing so the article has me wondering whether political issues at the time would have prompted candidate pushing regardless of their be genuine or not.conebeckham wrote:I'm not so sure, frankly, that Tsong Khapa didn't practice Dzokchen. It's clear he received teachings. There may be no written record of him transmitting Dzokchen, or even practicing it...so it's all speculation, of course. But........
As for the 5th Dalai Lama, he was the "rebirth" of the 4th, even though he couldn't identify the objects...I think that is the accepted position. No on is saying that there was "another" 5th Dalai Lama, as far as I know.
heart wrote:
I see you share this ideas with the Western Shugden Society.
/magnus
The recognition being faked don't exactly mean that 5th is saying that he isn't the correct tulku of the Dalai Lama. Or does he say "I'm not the Dalai Lama"?Namdrol wrote:heart wrote:
I see you share this ideas with the Western Shugden Society.
/magnus
Hi Magnus:
Actually, the Fifth Dalai Lama notes in his own autobiography that his recognition was faked. What people do with this information is something else altogether.
You should read Karmey's article.heart wrote:The recognition being faked don't exactly mean that 5th is saying that he isn't the correct tulku of the Dalai Lama. Or does he say "I'm not the Dalai Lama"?Namdrol wrote:heart wrote:
I see you share this ideas with the Western Shugden Society.
/magnus
Hi Magnus:
Actually, the Fifth Dalai Lama notes in his own autobiography that his recognition was faked. What people do with this information is something else altogether.
/magnus
So that autobiography has finally been published? Who published it? I heard about the manuscript several years ago from my lama, who said that apparently after quite some time in what is today inner Mongolia (his Mongol 'executioners' released him after they were a good distance from Lhasa) the 6th returned to central Tibet, and that the 6th and 7th actually saw and recognized each other at least once in Lhasa, but Rinpoche was not sure if they actually talked.Namdrol wrote:
There is also the issue of the sixth Dalai Lama and the Seventh Dalai Lama living at the same time. The sixth was not killed. He was banned to Amdo. His autobiography has appeared. The present HHDL has indicated that he feels a strongest affinity to the second, fifth, sixth, and thirteenth Dalai Lamas, who all have strong connections with the Nyingma practice.
N
http://www.wickhamsmith.net/sixthdalai/sixthdalai.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;mudra wrote:So that autobiography has finally been published? Who published it? I heard about the manuscript several years ago from my lama, who said that apparently after quite some time in what is today inner Mongolia (his Mongol 'executioners' released him after they were a good distance from Lhasa) the 6th returned to central Tibet, and that the 6th and 7th actually saw and recognized each other at least once in Lhasa, but Rinpoche was not sure if they actually talked.Namdrol wrote:
There is also the issue of the sixth Dalai Lama and the Seventh Dalai Lama living at the same time. The sixth was not killed. He was banned to Amdo. His autobiography has appeared. The present HHDL has indicated that he feels a strongest affinity to the second, fifth, sixth, and thirteenth Dalai Lamas, who all have strong connections with the Nyingma practice.
N
Ok, I did, and he is not saying that he isn't the Dalai Lama:Namdrol wrote: You should read Karmey's article.
The Dalai Lama was never a tulku lineage like the Karmapas were once i.e. self-recognized.heart wrote:Ok, I did, and he is not saying that he isn't the Dalai Lama:Namdrol wrote: You should read Karmey's article.
"‘The official Tsawa Kachu of the Ganden Palace showed me statues and rosaries (that belonged to the Fourth Dalai Lama and other lamas), but I was unable to distinguish between them! When he left the room I heard him tell the people outside that I had successfully passed the tests. Later, when he became my tutor, he would often admon- ish me and say: “You must work hard, since you were unable to recognize the objects!”"
You might want to interpret it like that, or not.
/magnus