Completion of the path of Tögal

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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Mr. G » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:26 pm

Heruka wrote:the point is exposure to such, never effected his enlightenment, but really sped it on.

:anjali:



I don't understand. You're saying they never affected his enlightenment, but helped it along?
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Heruka » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:34 pm

i dont know......... :emb: :popcorn:

i hope there's some clarity in what i type?

if not, hope im corrected by others more :quoteunquote: buddhist :quoteunquote: than me.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Heruka » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:41 pm

mr. gordo wrote:
Heruka wrote:well, first we have a gentleman named alara kalama who taught the dhamma of samkhya, which gotama ultimately found unsatisfactory. we can also say that gotama probably learned yogic practices of patanjali, which were wide spread in the ganges at that time.


Heruka, I was aware of his non-dharma related teachers, and I'm sure they helped him on his path. What exactly is your point here?



i dont get this discrimination of dharmic and non dharmic? i mean to know what is true, one has to know what is false right?

is that not dhamma in its essence?

togal relates to that how?
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby kirtu » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:16 pm

Heruka wrote:
Heruka wrote:
just for fun mr G, what was the name of Gotama Siddhartas guru?



well, first we have a gentleman named alara kalama who took siddharta as a student and taught the dhamma of samkhya, which gotama ultimately found unsatisfactory....


And his other guru was Udraka Ramaputra. But, Shakyamuni Buddha had gurus in past lives such as Buddha Kasyapa,

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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Adamantine » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:32 pm

From a Vajrayana POV, Buddha Shakyamuni was already enlightened. . .

The Vajrayana tantra mentions that before Buddha Shakyamuni manifested his enlightenment in this world, he had already become enlightened in Akanishta pureland in the form of Buddha Vajradhara and then manifested his Nirmanakaya form as Siddhartha and performed the twelve deeds. So from the Mahayana point of view Siddharta was a Bodhisattva of the tenth bhumi and from Vajrayana's point of view Buddha Shakayamuni was already enlightened when he was born as Prince Sidharth.
http://www.khamtrul.org/-1/teachings/hi ... -vajrayana

So from a Vajrayana POV, Buddha Shakyamuni when he studied with these other teachers before the final 'display' of his enlightenment, he was displaying how those paths fell to extremes that wouldn't bring one to total awakening.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Adamantine » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:41 pm

heart wrote:This American couple say they reached completion of the path of Tögal! Anyone know who their teacher is?

http://www.acircleisdrawn.org/index.php/about/

/magnus


There would be no need to announce who their teachers and lineage were if they weren't announcing their own enlightenment on the world wide web, but now that they've done so it's a bit confusing to leave that blank.

Apparently the American Buddha couple also 'completed' the path of Togal, but found absolutely nothing special about it so decided to be nihilist materialists again. At least, they say they learned and completed the highest practices so one can only assume this is what they meant. They also are very happy to announce who all their teachers were and belittle them. I'm a much bigger fan of this circleisdrawn couple if I had to choose. . .

I believe it was Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche who said that around 80% of Togal practitioners of old Tibet went crazy. I think it's a fine line once one starts doing dark retreat, etc!
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby muni » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:41 am

"We are so familiar with negativities". (Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche)

Thank you for this, it reminds on Milarepa:

"We are surrounded by teachings. All that manifests, all the difficulties and the grace.."
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby alpha » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:30 am

I have a question.

Do yogis write books about their experiences and sell them on amazon?

Thanx
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Mariusz » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:43 am

heart wrote:This American couple say they reached completion of the path of Tögal! Anyone know who their teacher is?

http://www.acircleisdrawn.org/index.php/about/

/magnus


the article mentions "bubbles form on water in a light rain; rainbows bloom in a misty sky; seeds sprout, grow upward, mature and set seed again; waters flow in rivulets and mountain streams into larger rivers leading to the sea, then rise into sky and clouds, and fall as rain on mountaintops again."

but in these so called "vissions" sadly nothing on emptiness at least .... ???

Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche, From The Direct Instructions on Mahamudra and Dzogchen. To be published, Fall, 2008: "The nature of your mind is beyond any kind of concept, conceptual elaboration or extreme you can come up with. It is not something, it is not nothing, it is not both, and it
is not some other thing that is neither something or nothing."
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby muni » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:00 pm

Yogis share their experiences in a way which looks grazy when it is not understood.

Mariusz, those are no deluded visions, those are ways to express what cannot be expressed. When they do so with the motivation to help, to inspire to see through clarity in which our own defiled thought, speech, action is seen, then may they do so.

Only look into own mind is such a challenge. Then objects need to be purified not my own mind.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby mutsuk » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:02 pm

Adamantine wrote:I believe it was Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche who said that around 80% of Togal practitioners of old Tibet went crazy.


You have a reference for this ? A quote that can be verified? This sounds BS for westerners...
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:11 pm

Mariusz wrote:
heart wrote:This American couple say they reached completion of the path of Tögal! Anyone know who their teacher is?

http://www.acircleisdrawn.org/index.php/about/

/magnus


the article mentions "bubbles form on water in a light rain; rainbows bloom in a misty sky; seeds sprout, grow upward, mature and set seed again; waters flow in rivulets and mountain streams into larger rivers leading to the sea, then rise into sky and clouds, and fall as rain on mountaintops again."

but in these so called "vissions" sadly nothing on emptiness at least .... ???

Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche, From The Direct Instructions on Mahamudra and Dzogchen. To be published, Fall, 2008: "The nature of your mind is beyond any kind of concept, conceptual elaboration or extreme you can come up with. It is not something, it is not nothing, it is not both, and it
is not some other thing that is neither something or nothing."


Mariusz,

In Dzogchen, the visions of togal are said to arise from the spontaneous presence aspect of rigpa, so they perfectly fit with what Thrangu Rinpoche has said. The togal visions are perfectly beyond concepts or any kind of elaboration. That said, I'm neither defending nor denouncing this couple. I suspend judgment.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby muni » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:14 pm

When I am able to see people are grazy or deluded that means I am able to help them, no judgements.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:16 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:Absolutely inane to discuss something like that in public if you are not a teacher.


Well, if they did in fact reach the culmination of the 4th vision of togal, then they're on the same level as Samantabhadra... Whether they did achieve that accomplishment is another matter, though. But as I've said before, I have no way of knowing.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Astus » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:32 pm

I don't see how it is related to Togal (circles - beads? maybe). Visions are not restricted even to Buddhism, and this Earth-loving attitude is a bit strange too. There are not enough info on the page either.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Adamantine » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:47 pm

mutsuk wrote:
Adamantine wrote:I believe it was Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche who said that around 80% of Togal practitioners of old Tibet went crazy.


You have a reference for this ? A quote that can be verified? This sounds BS for westerners...


I don't remember where I heard it/ read it. . . I believe it was him. But I'll remove the post if nobody else here recalls this coming from him in a teaching. . I don't want to misquote. It don't think stories about practitioners going crazy in dark retreat are rare though. . .
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:34 pm

Astus wrote:I don't see how it is related to Togal (circles - beads? maybe). Visions are not restricted even to Buddhism, and this Earth-loving attitude is a bit strange too. There are not enough info on the page either.


Astus,

All I can really say is that with the possible exception of the earth stuff, everything else is very clearly related. The visions of togal are unlike any other visions one could ever experience.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Mariusz » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:47 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Mariusz wrote:
heart wrote:This American couple say they reached completion of the path of Tögal! Anyone know who their teacher is?

http://www.acircleisdrawn.org/index.php/about/

/magnus


the article mentions "bubbles form on water in a light rain; rainbows bloom in a misty sky; seeds sprout, grow upward, mature and set seed again; waters flow in rivulets and mountain streams into larger rivers leading to the sea, then rise into sky and clouds, and fall as rain on mountaintops again."

but in these so called "vissions" sadly nothing on emptiness at least .... ???

Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche, From The Direct Instructions on Mahamudra and Dzogchen. To be published, Fall, 2008: "The nature of your mind is beyond any kind of concept, conceptual elaboration or extreme you can come up with. It is not something, it is not nothing, it is not both, and it
is not some other thing that is neither something or nothing."


Mariusz,

In Dzogchen, the visions of togal are said to arise from the spontaneous presence aspect of rigpa, so they perfectly fit with what Thrangu Rinpoche has said. The togal visions are perfectly beyond concepts or any kind of elaboration. That said, I'm neither defending nor denouncing this couple. I suspend judgment.


It is obvious but perhaps not in this article? Moreover, if you do so called retreats in complete darkness many years you will have many "visions" of course. They can be even more realistic than of ordinary life, more inherent, solid, indepentend, permament with the nature of their own... There are stories of people who have many such visions, dramatic experiences, when for example were involuntary closed many days in dark places, for example cave tourists. Sunyata is the basic whatever you teach or practise in Buddhism.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby mutsuk » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:41 pm

Adamantine wrote: I don't want to misquote.


Ok. If you find it, please share, I'm interested...

It don't think stories about practitioners going crazy in dark retreat are rare though. . .

Indeed, but dark retreats are one aspects of the practice of Thogal, and you have many Dzogchen cycles where you have Thogal but no dark retreats...
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby muni » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:33 pm

Highest acomplishment to reach and in essence utterly nondual simplicity. fabricated dogmas can be such traps, not?
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