Completion of the path of Tögal

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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby tingdzin » Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:05 pm

I met this couple when they were first out of retreat and touring, and it was clear to me that they were genuine practitioners with good and gentle hearts, and had some very useful things to say about practice. Since that time, however, I have heard that they have run into obstacle after obstacle in their attempt to spread these teachings. This may be an effect of samaya problems. I believe that they also lacked some skillful means in their presentation, not only mixing Dzogchen lineage instruction with a set of teachings they developed themselves, but also in putting top secret stuff out there for everybody and their grandmothers. As I result of the latter, for example, I heard of one completely self-deluded woman with no Dzogchen background who, after seeing their artisticrenderings of the visions, claimed she had seen such things in her meditation for years. Doubtless she will set herself up as a Dzogchen teacher one of these days. I had tried to warn them about things like this, but they didn't seem to believe that people interested in spiritual development could also be twisted and manipulative.

There are good reasons for all the strictures surrounding Dzogchen (and tantra).
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:16 pm

Heruka wrote:so the trial by social media?
Given that they started their apocalypse utilising social media (a blog site) I cannot see why you are getting so upset that they will be tried via social media.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby heart » Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:30 pm

tingdzin wrote:I met this couple when they were first out of retreat and touring, and it was clear to me that they were genuine practitioners with good and gentle hearts, and had some very useful things to say about practice. Since that time, however, I have heard that they have run into obstacle after obstacle in their attempt to spread these teachings. This may be an effect of samaya problems. I believe that they also lacked some skillful means in their presentation, not only mixing Dzogchen lineage instruction with a set of teachings they developed themselves, but also in putting top secret stuff out there for everybody and their grandmothers. As I result of the latter, for example, I heard of one completely self-deluded woman with no Dzogchen background who, after seeing their artisticrenderings of the visions, claimed she had seen such things in her meditation for years. Doubtless she will set herself up as a Dzogchen teacher one of these days. I had tried to warn them about things like this, but they didn't seem to believe that people interested in spiritual development could also be twisted and manipulative.

There are good reasons for all the strictures surrounding Dzogchen (and tantra).


Thank you tingdzin, what you say makes sense to me. I always wondered how the activity of MaZaDam would look like.

/magnus
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby MaitriYNOD » Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:48 am

I don't recall ever reading that diatribes against another's samaya do anything to protect one's own...
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:06 am

Whilst disparaging ones vajra siblings is also a breach of samaya one must look at the issue in its totality.

If you were Tibetan in Tibet (for example), you would have a well defined and indepth knowledge of what constitutes samaya breakage and what does not. You would have learnt these details directly from your guru. You would be aware of the consequences of samaya breakages and (more than likely) would take these consequences seriously (and not write them off as "antiquated and irrelevant superstitious nonsense").

Here at Dharma Wheel (for example) there are many practitioners that have no direct contact with a live guru. You have practitioners that have no idea about the seriousness of samaya breakages: how they harm the practitioner, the teacher and the teachings themselves. People brought up to believe in a materialist/nihilist view that does not even consider karma as valid or rational, let alone concepts like "vajra hell".

So when the "Olds" come along and try to sell their experiences to an unsuspecting public what would be better? To let them weave their tale and draw people into their mire? Or maybe it is better to intelligently and rationally point out a few facts, having the welfare of other practitioners in mind, so that people do not commit the same mistakes? How exactly do you believe that people that have no direct contact with a guru should learn about samaya? :shrug:

Let us also not forget that when the rules around samaya were formulated there was no such thing as the internet. Somebody spreading information about practices/experiences would have been limited as to who (and how many people) the information was shared with. It would have been more than likely that they would have come quickly into contact with other practitioners who would have told them to keep their mouths shut. It would be likely that they would not have found as many ignorant and wide eyed takers to indulge their statments to and thus "pollute" their minds with their ideas..
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby oldbob » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:11 pm

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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby CrawfordHollow » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:19 pm

Although there may not be any specific samayas for dzogchen per se, Namkahi Norbu Rinpoche himself emphasizes how important it is to protect the transmition by not talking about secret teachings. He also urges his sangha not to fight amognst themselves, saying that it creates problems not only for the sangha, but for the teacher. So ChNN does seem to think that some of the samayas are important to live by, even if he doesn't call it by name. He often tells the story of his trip to Kailash where people were discussing notes on togal after he had told them not to talk about this teaching. He says that talking about these things or even hearing about them before you are ready can ruin the whole path for you. There are some things that he and most other lamas think should be kept secret, and togal certainly tops the list.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby dzogchungpa » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:25 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:He says that talking about these things or even hearing about them before you are ready can ruin the whole path for you. There are some things that he and most other lamas think should be kept secret, and togal certainly tops the list.

The Bonpos talk about it openly, don't they?
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Bhusuku » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:23 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
CrawfordHollow wrote:He says that talking about these things or even hearing about them before you are ready can ruin the whole path for you. There are some things that he and most other lamas think should be kept secret, and togal certainly tops the list.

The Bonpos talk about it openly, don't they?

more or less, yes.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Inge » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:48 pm



Excellent explanation on that page! Thank you, oldbob!
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby oldbob » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:12 am

CrawfordHollow wrote:Although there may not be any specific samayas for dzogchen per se, Namkahi Norbu Rinpoche himself emphasizes how important it is to protect the transmition by not talking about secret teachings. He also urges his sangha not to fight amognst themselves, saying that it creates problems not only for the sangha, but for the teacher. So ChNN does seem to think that some of the samayas are important to live by, even if he doesn't call it by name. He often tells the story of his trip to Kailash where people were discussing notes on togal after he had told them not to talk about this teaching. He says that talking about these things or even hearing about them before you are ready can ruin the whole path for you. There are some things that he and most other lamas think should be kept secret, and togal certainly tops the list.


:good:

All the above (and below) :smile:

Circumstances are everything.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Salomon » Sun May 05, 2013 6:59 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:He says that talking about these things or even hearing about them before you are ready can ruin the whole path for you. There are some things that he and most other lamas think should be kept secret, and togal certainly tops the list.


So everyone is saying this without explaining why? That's the funny thing around Thogal or anything secret, it is just secret and if you hear about it you are doomed!
Sounds like a fear game to me. I have done what I needed to learn from Thogal and it has helped me somehow but I am no more interested about being a rainbow body, there are much more interesting and deeper body than this.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun May 05, 2013 8:17 pm

Salomon wrote:
CrawfordHollow wrote:He says that talking about these things or even hearing about them before you are ready can ruin the whole path for you. There are some things that he and most other lamas think should be kept secret, and togal certainly tops the list.


So everyone is saying this without explaining why? That's the funny thing around Thogal or anything secret, it is just secret and if you hear about it you are doomed!
Sounds like a fear game to me. I have done what I needed to learn from Thogal and it has helped me somehow but I am no more interested about being a rainbow body, there are much more interesting and deeper body than this.


From personal experience, secrecy around togal is not a fear game in the slightest. And actually, it's not so much secrecy as it is simply the advice not to read about it or learn about on your own and get all sorts of concepts about it instead of learning it from your lama who's determined you're ready and who can guide you properly to avoid common pitfalls. What are these pitfalls? Well, for starters, it behooves one not to approach with conceptualization a "practice" that can only work when approached without conceptualizing, clinging to and objectifying the method, the visions, or the desire for accomplishment. I can't see how approaching it properly could be accomplished without developing stable trekchod, nor can I fathom how one could successfully progress in togal without clarifying teachings from the lama or his/her guidance along the way. Also, and I don't know if this is absolutely necessary, but there is a unique, elaborate rigpa'i tsal wang for togal in all the systems that I'm familiar with, and I can't imagine it's superfluous.

Lastly, according to the Dzogchen teachings themselves, accomplishing the body of light as uniquely defined in Dzogchen (a similarly named, but not identical accomlishment is mentioned in other paths) is indeed the highest possible accomplishment and involves a level of benefit to beings that is said to be the most vast possible. Now, no one is obligated to believe that, and I myself was skeptical initially, but when receiving detailed and thorough teachings on this it all makes sense. Anyhow, YMMV.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Salomon » Sun May 05, 2013 8:29 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:From personal experience, secrecy around togal--or actually nto secrecy but rather simply the advice not to read about it or learn about on your own instead of learning it from your lama who's determined you're ready--is not a fear game in the slightest. It has everything to do with not approaching something that can only work when approached without conceptualizing, clinging to and objectifying the method, the visions, or the desire for accomplishment. I can't see how approaching it properly could be accomplished without developing stable trekchod, nor can I fathom how one could successfully progress in togal without clarifying teachings from the lama or his/her guidance along the way. Also, and I don't know if this is absolutely necessary, but there is a unique, elaborate rigpa'i tsal wang for togal in all the systems that I'm familiar with, and I can't imagine it's superfluous.


And so what is the problem of approaching with conceptualizing? In what it is a particular danger to do this other than all other kind of danger you may find in Life?
If you will get crazy with Thogal, you would with other method in Life, why? Because you have to be stupid to go to a method until you get crazy.

I agree that Thogal is a little bit mad in itself and make you believe all kind of extraordinary possibilities and for this reason it should not go public. But it has more to do for its crazyness than anything to do with you for the reason why it should be not widely spread. Actually I think that anyone can find something as crazy as Thogal in others kind of methods. Thogal is not the craziest I am sure.

Also, it seems that no one really understand Thogal and Treckhod, not even from Lama or Master, they are all learning until they are succeding by becoming a Rainbow Body, then they will know experientially and then able to teach. The problem is how you gonna share this from face to face to people once you are no more in the same plane of Reality.

It is not enough in my view to lean from a Rainbow Bodyer in lucid dream and then teach from there, it is great but you need to know on your own to teach. Only a Rainbow bodyer can teach Thogal it seems, because even in your writing I see that you are limited when you talk about Thogal or Treckhod. You seem to just have learnt well the lesson with some experiences of course.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Salomon » Sun May 05, 2013 8:31 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:Lastly, according to the Dzogchen teachings themselves, accomplishing the body of light as uniquely defined in Dzogchen (a similarly named, but not identical accomlishment is mentioned in other paths) is indeed the highest possible accomplishment and involves a level of benefit to beings that is said to be the most vast possible. Now, no one is obligated to believe that, and I myself was skeptical initially, but when receiving detailed and thorough teachings on this it all makes sense. Anyhow, YMMV.


What can be more deep and more beneficial that what you are fundamentally and essentially? How can you be more beneficial than your greatest potential that is to say "you" rather than some kind of part of you?
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun May 05, 2013 9:22 pm

Salomon wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:Lastly, according to the Dzogchen teachings themselves, accomplishing the body of light as uniquely defined in Dzogchen (a similarly named, but not identical accomlishment is mentioned in other paths) is indeed the highest possible accomplishment and involves a level of benefit to beings that is said to be the most vast possible. Now, no one is obligated to believe that, and I myself was skeptical initially, but when receiving detailed and thorough teachings on this it all makes sense. Anyhow, YMMV.


What can be more deep and more beneficial that what you are fundamentally and essentially? How can you be more beneficial than your greatest potential that is to say "you" rather than some kind of part of you?


According to Dzogchen, realizing the body of light is realizing what "you" are to the barest, fullest extent possible. So it is said to be realizing what you are fundamentally and essentially.

But again, this is just what the doctrine of Dzogchen says. No one is obligated to see things the same way or believe anything. And I don't point this out in some triumphalist way, boasting about Dzogchen's "superiority," though some will absolutely think [and maybe even comment to the effect that] that's what I'm doing. But I'm only saying that the above is what Dzogchen asserts. What Dzogchen asserts won't speak to everyone, which is fine. There are many other beautiful paths and maybe one of them will. Furthermore, it's also very possible that the main points of Dzogpa Chenpo will speak to people and work for them just fine even if they choose not to worry about whether rainbow body is the ultimate realization, and they'll go on to become fine Dzogchen practitioners all the same. :namaste:
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby CrawfordHollow » Sun May 05, 2013 9:51 pm

The danger is not that the practice will destroy you or make you go crazy, the danger is that it won't work because you are basing your practice on delusion and fantasy and not on concrete knowledge and realization. We have seen many teachers in our time who embody the realization of dzogchen perfectly: Dudjom Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentse, and Choegyal Namkahi Norbu to name a few.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Salomon » Sun May 05, 2013 10:05 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:The danger is not that the practice will destroy you or make you go crazy, the danger is that it won't work because you are basing your practice on delusion and fantasy and not on concrete knowledge and realization. We have seen many teachers in our time who embody the realization of dzogchen perfectly: Dudjom Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentse, and Choegyal Namkahi Norbu to name a few.


Yes but this is true for everything else and so would not explain the secracy of Thogal.
If I tell you some insights you may not be ready and so think all kinds of interpretation, not only Thogal.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Salomon » Sun May 05, 2013 10:09 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Salomon wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:Lastly, according to the Dzogchen teachings themselves, accomplishing the body of light as uniquely defined in Dzogchen (a similarly named, but not identical accomlishment is mentioned in other paths) is indeed the highest possible accomplishment and involves a level of benefit to beings that is said to be the most vast possible. Now, no one is obligated to believe that, and I myself was skeptical initially, but when receiving detailed and thorough teachings on this it all makes sense. Anyhow, YMMV.


What can be more deep and more beneficial that what you are fundamentally and essentially? How can you be more beneficial than your greatest potential that is to say "you" rather than some kind of part of you?


According to Dzogchen, realizing the body of light is realizing what "you" are to the barest, fullest extent possible. So it is said to be realizing what you are fundamentally and essentially.

But again, this is just what the doctrine of Dzogchen says. No one is obligated to see things the same way or believe anything. And I don't point this out in some triumphalist way, boasting about Dzogchen's "superiority," though some will absolutely think [and maybe even comment to the effect that] that's what I'm doing. But I'm only saying that the above is what Dzogchen asserts. What Dzogchen asserts won't speak to everyone, which is fine. There are many other beautiful paths and maybe one of them will. Furthermore, it's also very possible that the main points of Dzogpa Chenpo will speak to people and work for them just fine even if they choose not to worry about whether rainbow body is the ultimate realization, and they'll go on to become fine Dzogchen practitioners all the same. :namaste:


Yes but you can use your intelligence too and know more about the Rainbow Body.
From the knowledge we have, we can see if this is our deepest us or another layer and potential of our being.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun May 05, 2013 11:30 pm

Well, IMO, there's no way to actually know until we accomplish total realization. It seems obvious to me that conceptual thought has serious limitations. But until that point of total realization, we can hear the teachings, see the arguments they present to support their assertions about rainbow body, and decide if they're compelling. I have done so and I found them compelling. But as I said before, YMMV. It's all good either way.
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