Stabilising Dzogchen practice

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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby mutsuk » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:00 pm

Sönam wrote:The difference in the straight bönpo view proposed and buddhist view, is that for bönpo the progression, including intensively accumulate both merits and so on, is included in their Dzogchen' cycle ... which is the not the case for Buddhist (Nyigmapa) where there is 8 buddhists vehicles before ati.


This is precisely the case in the Longchen Nyingthik, where before doing the Yeshe Lama, you do the retreat on Kunzang Lamai Zhellung, before doing Tummo, yidam retreat and then rushen, etc. You don't know that it's already the same in Lama Yangtik, etc. You don't know what you're talking about. Read the table of contents of the Lama Yangtik on TBRC, maybe this will enlighten you. Because what you describe does not correspond to any reality. I've not seen any Lama teaching the way you imagine Dzogchen is taught...

Therefore, what has not been realized before has to be within, and this is the reason the "Dzogchen cursus" is very progressive and straight. The buddhist approach is slightly different.

Oh yeah? How different ? Do you know hte cursus of the Longchen Nyingthik in Dzogchen Monastery ? Do you know how the Lama Yangtik is taught ? Even in the Black Yangti you have preliminaries, yidam practice, etc. Sönam, your imagination is deluding you. I'm not going to re-copy the contents of the Black Yangti, Lama Yangtik, Longchen Nyingthik, etc. here, but you should take a look at the contents in the TBRC page, this would at least be respectful for the readers here.
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby tamdrin » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:11 pm

Magnus how do you figure the Longchen Nyingtig 3 year includes 2 years of 4 thoughts practice? That is 12 hours a day of those contemplations? I am assuming this is in the lineage from Khenpo Ngagchung? While I know in that lineage he had his students (and Khenpo Munsel) do at least 100 days on those four thoughts before doing a 3 year or other longer retreats..
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby heart » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:54 pm

tamdrin wrote:Magnus how do you figure the Longchen Nyingtig 3 year includes 2 years of 4 thoughts practice? That is 12 hours a day of those contemplations? I am assuming this is in the lineage from Khenpo Ngagchung? While I know in that lineage he had his students (and Khenpo Munsel) do at least 100 days on those four thoughts before doing a 3 year or other longer retreats..


I have understood that in Khenpo Ngagchungs lineage they do about 2 years of the first three-year retreat mainly Ngondro wit a lot of emphasis on the four thoughts.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby Sönam » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:12 am

things speak by them self ... and somone who "knows" generally does not shout it loud ...

It's very visible that he has a high opinion of himself, which is quite a big drawback for someone who intends to practice Dzogchen. ... little kids say "c'est celui qui le dit qui est" "this is the one who says who is". And it is clear that "high opinion of themself" is a quality that anyone can perceive in that tendency ... there is no much more to say !


he's apparently mistaking me regularly for somebody else which is quite telling in itself. this is an absurd reasonning ... how can someone know on internet if if one is a male or a female. Pretending it's "quite telling in itself" can throw light on the way of reasonning ... It's quite telling in itself.

They View of Dzogchen in Bön and Nyingma is the same. Exactly the same. ... once more "à coté de la plaque" "completely mistaken", who is speaking of the view ? I was speaking of the means !

Do not resort to personal stuff. Keep it at the level of the discussion, old man, your avatar is already quite telling in itself no? ... anyone taking time to read our pseudo-conversation would see who is resorting to personal stuff. No necessity to argue about ... just openning eyes on fact ! which seems not to be an habit.

... and that's enough not to continue any discussion with you ! It's not very productive !
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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby mutsuk » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:29 am

Sönam wrote:
They View of Dzogchen in Bön and Nyingma is the same. Exactly the same. ... once more "à coté de la plaque" "completely mistaken", who is speaking of the view ? I was speaking of the means !

Then it's even worst than we all thought! How are the means different in Bon Dzogchen and Nyingma Dzogchen ? They are exactly the same, you know, these gradual things that you despise, such as Rushen, three doors training, trekcho, etc. Sönam, don't lower the level of this thread by personal garbage attacks. Try to recognize that you're wrong since the beginning and you're the only person thinking the way you do. Go to a qualified master and he will teach you. That's the only thing I can tell you. Your deluded views have had you fired from the french dzogchen forum, doesn't that ring a bell?

And to come back to your critics regarding JL's choice of vocabulary, I would say such critics would be acceptable from someone qualified in french and in the theories of translations. But I checked what you and your "translation" committee are doing and I can tell you that the level of literary french that you acheived is at best 4th grade and not really at the basic requirements necessary for respecting the Dharma. Make the dharmic world a better place by giving up these things... Now, if we could come back to the subject of this thread, how to stabilize Rigpa, that would be interesting.
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby Sönam » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:09 pm

your avatar is already quite telling in itself no? ... Image

I can see your level of communication ... and of being. :thumbsup:
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby muni » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:30 pm

Mantra OM AH HUNG keeps bla bla mind :broke: nicely busy.
(Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche)

A help, gives colored bla bla a job.

peace
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby mutsuk » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:51 pm

Sönam wrote:your avatar is already quite telling in itself no? ... Image

I can see your level of communication ... and of being. :thumbsup:


Sônam, look on page 2 who started the "personal things" attacks, out of a lack of anything to say. You are lucky JL doesn't come of these forum at all, it would certainly not be the same thing. But most apparently you don't like the mirror effect and you also probably don't like to have chick like me kick your butt, he? Now it would be nice if you could stick to the topics. Keep your rants for yourself.
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby muni » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:18 pm

mutsuk: "Then it's even worst than we all thought"! same thought? = many mutsuks.

Nyingma? Teacher learns disparaging language, cutting others down? Only gentle speaking by wisdom and compassion, i never forget their loving kindness in gratefulness and emerging their teachings in daily life.
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby mutsuk » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:29 pm

muni wrote:mutsuk: "Then it's even worst than we all thought"! same thought? = many mutsuks.

Nyingma? Teacher learns disparaging language, cutting others down? Only gentle speaking by wisdom and compassion, never forget their loving kindness.


No need to be sanctimonious as usual Muni; spreading wrong views as Sönam does is a big matter in Buddhist orthodoxy.It has to be treated with expedient means and his recurring misleadings are to be regarded as pitfalls. Regarding loving kindness, you should read the polemical litterature in which most of the big names in tibetan buddhism have been involved throughout history and up to the present, you'd find a lot of crude vocabulary there.... Cutting down others ? Come on, see the stalk, etc.? Sometime the behavior of someone has to be matched with an equel taste of ....diamond. Going back to the topic should be more interesting no?
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby muni » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:03 pm

"Never lose bodhichitta, have the ability to cut through doubts and misconceptions with wisdom".

In our conduct is stability supported.

Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

the words of disparaging language, cutting others down are from Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche as well, also he talked about gentle speak and the evil of arrogance and pride pitfalls.
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby mutsuk » Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:55 pm

Well this changes nothing to the fact that Sönam's views are misleading others, which in itself is quite dramatic. Could we go back to the topic please instead of playing egos, last words, etc. (typically male behavoir) ? :focus:
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby muni » Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:13 pm

mutsuk wrote:Well this changes nothing to the fact that Sönam's views are misleading others, which in itself is quite dramatic. Could we go back to the topic please instead of playing egos, last words, etc. (typically male behavoir) ? :focus:


on topic. Conduct, completely altruistic is the open way in which we keep the conceptual mind "under control" in order to remain aware. Rush in following coarse thoughts, one dreams.

there is no need for games in suffering, rather to clarify.
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby muni » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:53 am

Ah! Now I see the game of telling "last words". I have no any skills, whether in my misperception I see ego to beat or when I should understand nonduality, there is revealing compassion. All is compassion "in awareness and its' media body speech and mind in vast space" Longchenpa.

Thank you for teaching. :thumbsup:



http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... gchen.html
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby Sönam » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:16 am

mutsuk wrote:Well this changes nothing to the fact that Sönam's views are misleading others, which in itself is quite dramatic. Could we go back to the topic please instead of playing egos, last words, etc. (typically male behavoir) ? :focus:


craziness and insubstantiality of words ... the ball can always be returned to the sender ... who's first?

Having discriminated in regard of a face, now discrimination in regard of a genre ... what is next in term of discrimination? Shouting lound may close the mouth of the pacified, does it prove the rightness of the sounds perceived?

Those who know not the things which make up the world,
And abide in two perceptions,
Saying, "this is true, that is false"-
Such ignoramuses make disputations.
Because I know the genuine reality
Of the things which make up the world,
I never enter into dispute
With worldly people at all.
This doctrine, which is free from dispute,
Has been expounded by all of the buddhas.
If one knows the world to be sameness,
There is neither truth, nor falsehood in it.
If any truth, or falsehood,
Were to be found in this teaching,
I would be an adherent of extremes,
And so be no different from an extremist.
Because things are not genuine,
There is no truth and no falsehood.
Therefore, I explain the doctrine
Which transcends the world
To be free from these two.
Those sages who know this world,
In accord with the world's reality,
Do not adhere to views of truth, or falsehood.
Those who know this world
To be utterly pure, like the sky,
Have great reputations
Which illuminate the world.

- Sutra of the Dialogue with Sagaramati -

Do not think hatefully of those
Extremists who inhabit the world.
Establishing compassion for them
Is a special feature of a beginner's patience.

- Sutra of Candrapradipa -

Look carefully at what is truly meaningful-at awareness. Are there the ten kinds of virtuous actions to carry out? Is there any samaya to uphold? Is there any view, meditation, conduct, or fruition to implement? Are there any inevitable karmic consequences, any lower states of existence?
- The Text of Precious Copper Letters -

Freedom within the expanse of awareness, in which nothing need be done,
is impossible with inferior spiritual approaches involving effort and achievement,
but it is easy for one immersed in genuine being on the path,
equal to space, on which nothing need be done.

- Garab Dorjé -
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby Pero » Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:20 pm

Can someone tell me in short what the disagreement is actually about? I read all posts but I have no clue what they/you are arguing about. :lol:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby Mariusz » Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:43 pm

Pero wrote:Can someone tell me in short what the disagreement is actually about? I read all posts but I have no clue what they/you are arguing about. :lol:

:smile: It is not a big deal at all. I think until one is not guided by realized master of Dzogchen, there is no other way but logic, the valid cognition whatever, if "projecting" conceptually something as Dzogchen or not.

Here in forum we can learn the valid cognition only of course. Sonam, for example, seems to me be not a realized master of Dzogchen and he can offer us no more than valid cognition. But for example I've already questioned him many times, and still waiting for his logical answers :smile:
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby muni » Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:56 pm

its' about keeping balanced awareness, be aware of distraction, not falling in despair to stabilize practice and not turn in misperception. Sönam showed text with clarification about sameness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXoU32y- ... re=related
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby gnegirl » Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:16 pm

Mariusz wrote:
Pero wrote:Can someone tell me in short what the disagreement is actually about? I read all posts but I have no clue what they/you are arguing about. :lol:

:smile: It is not a big deal at all. I think until one is not guided by realized master of Dzogchen, there is no other way but logic, the valid cognition whatever, if "projecting" conceptually something as Dzogchen or not.

Here in forum we can learn the valid cognition only of course. Sonam, for example, seems to me be not a realized master of Dzogchen and he can offer us no more than valid cognition. But for example I've already questioned him many times, and still waiting for his logical answers :smile:


I am very curious what qualities you would expect in a 'realized master of dzogpa chenpo'?
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby alpha » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:09 pm

:lol: :roll: :jumping:

or ...whats the measure of the endless ocean of samsara ?
or whats the measure of the limitless nature of mind???

excellent

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