Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:27 pm

Heruka wrote:dzogchen in its purest form is beyond buddhist concepts, yet buddhism in its purest form is dzogchen.



There are two kinds of dharma: dharma of text and dharma of realization.

There are two kinds of buddhism: buddhism of text and buddhism of realization.

There are two kinds of dzogchen: dzogchen of texts and dzogchen of realization.

In order to establish that "dzogchen" is "without buddhism"; one would have to identify something in Buddhism that Dzogchen is missing; or conversely, something in Dzogchen that Buddhism is missing.

In reality, Dzogchen is just another way of explaining śūnyatāprābhāsvarāsaṁbhedaḥ in relation to the trikāya. No matter how profound Dzogchen may be (and it is the most profound teaching of Buddhism), it does not go beyond explaining how to realize the trikāya state through knowledge (vidyā,) of one's own basis (sthāna):
emptiness (śūnyatā, stong pa nyid; svarūpa, ngo bo; visuddha, ka dag; dharmakāya)
luminosity ('od gsal, prābhāsvarā; prakriti,rang bzhin) nirabhogana, lhun grub; sambhogakāya)
inseparability (āsaṁbhedaḥ, dbyer med; karuna, thugs rje; nirmanakāya)

Since śūnyatāprābhāsvarāsaṁbhedaḥ is nothing more than what the Buddha taught, even Dzogchen cannot go beyond being a teaching of a Buddha.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Silent Bob » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:12 am

tamdrin wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:I'm not overlooking your post, Adamantine and I've read some of CTR's work. It's hard to form an opinion based only in a few readings. If DKR vouched for it, probably it was useful.



I'm no expert either by any means, as I don't study in that lineage. I just thought it pertinent to the discussion, hoping someone here might have more knowledge about it.



Shambhala is very secretive about Vajrayana stuff.


Having been through all or most of the Vajrayana path as presented through Shambhala, I'd say that their caution in offering teachings is entirely appropriate. There are no SI students receiving HYT abhishekas who haven't at least completed the Karma Kagyu ngondro and no teachers showing up to give random empowerments or pointing-out instructions to gatherings of unprepared students.

I can't really address the efficacy of the Shambhala teachings themselves or their relationship to Dzogchen, since I discovered after they were introduced in in the late 1970's that I didn't connect with that teaching stream in any meaningful way and was happy to continue going my own way, practicing in the Kagyu tradition.

Chris
"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby tamdrin » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:31 am

I didn't mean it in necessarily a bad way, but then why can't other students who are interested in Chogyam Trungpa's Terma's access them outside the Shambhala thing... It seems they have a monopoly on it?
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Heruka » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:52 am

Namdrol wrote:Since śūnyatāprābhāsvarāsaṁbhedaḥ is nothing more than what the Buddha taught, even Dzogchen cannot go beyond being a teaching of a Buddha.


remaining in the state of great evenness beyond coming and going, their minds beyond clarification or obscuration and so on....dharmadhatu samantabhadri requests that the svabhavikakaya and dharmakaya of all the buddhas appear as pure lands, and teachers........primordial awareness manifested all phenomena beyond clarification or obscuration.......they remained clear and distinct in the dharmadhatu nature without limit or center......without saying anything, this was the great speech showing that all phenomena as enlightened from the beginning.....they remaind thus,

and then it goes on about how ati yoga appears in akanishta and so on.

I guess since the beyond is unknowable it is not a proper object for discussion.


thanks for the clear post N
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Silent Bob » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:55 am

tamdrin wrote:I didn't mean it in necessarily a bad way, but then why can't other students who are interested in Chogyam Trungpa's Terma's access them outside the Shambhala thing... It seems they have a monopoly on it?


And so they do, unless you're willing to go through their system.
"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby tamdrin » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:58 am

woops wrong topic
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:18 am

Heruka wrote:
remaining in the state of great evenness beyond coming and going, their minds beyond clarification or obscuration and so on....


This is no different that prajñapāramita and mahdhyamaka.

I pay homage to him,
the best of teachers, by whom dependent origination --
not ceasing, not arising;
not annihilated, not permanent;
not going, not coming;
not differentiated, not identical --
was taught as peace to to pacify proliferation.

So you need something a bit more than that statement if you are to demonstrate some teaching that renders Dzogchen "not Buddhism".
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Heruka » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:28 am

Namdrol wrote:This is no different that prajñapāramita and mahdhyamaka.


So you need something a bit more than that statement if you are to demonstrate some teaching that renders Dzogchen "not Buddhism".


are you saying that the beyond or as you imply and bait, the quintessential essense, the mother milk of prajñapāramita and mahdhyamaka is a proper object of study?
if so what pray tell is this?

a rumsfeld knowable unknowable?

your trying to make me place a view where there is none, to mix sutra, tantra and self liberation all in one?

try again.

H
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Heruka » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:45 am

Namdrol wrote:I pay homage to him,
the best of teachers, by whom dependent origination --
not ceasing, not arising;
not annihilated, not permanent;
not going, not coming;
not differentiated, not identical --
was taught as peace to to pacify proliferation.




this is a great quote.

sound, light and rays!


peace out
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:46 am

Heruka wrote:
are you saying that the beyond or as you imply and bait, the quintessential essense, the mother milk of prajñapāramita and mahdhyamaka is a proper object of study?



No you missed my point -- if you feel that being in a state of great equanimity free from coming and going and so is a unique point of Dzoghen, it isn't.

There are unique points in Dzogchen, of course -- but none of them place Dzogchen outside the pale of Buddhism, and are actually just answers to the basic questions Buddhism presents, just variations on Buddhist answers.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:47 am

Heruka wrote:

this is a great quote.


Yup, opening maṅgalaṃ from the mūlamadhyamakakarikas.

sound, light and rays!


Yup.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Heruka » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:50 am

:namaste:
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Heruka » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:54 am

Namdrol wrote:
Heruka wrote:
are you saying that the beyond or as you imply and bait, the quintessential essense, the mother milk of prajñapāramita and mahdhyamaka is a proper object of study?



No you missed my point -- if you feel that being in a state of great equanimity free from coming and going and so is a unique point of Dzoghen, it isn't.

There are unique points in Dzogchen, of course -- but none of them place Dzogchen outside the pale of Buddhism, and are actually just answers to the basic questions Buddhism presents, just variations on Buddhist answers.



jim is awesome, debate is healthy, buddhism is perfect, vajra brothers and sisters are close kin.

:namaste:
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Heruka » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:04 am

Namdrol wrote:but none of them place Dzogchen outside the pale of Buddhism,


loppon, what makes kuntazangpo a buddha?
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby muni » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:32 am

Namdrol wrote:[
Since śūnyatāprābhāsvarāsaṁbhedaḥ is nothing more than what the Buddha taught, even Dzogchen cannot go beyond being a teaching of a Buddha.


Can confuse when one see Dzogchen (pure innate qualities) as a consciously construction of Buddhist teaching, conditioned by such ( many fantasies by that)...instead of along the teaching possible revealed.

kill the buddha in order to reveal the Buddha.

Then there is no intention or need to hold on concepts, or make arguments out of nothing.
Falling down into thoughts' stream, identification arises.
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby dzoki » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:56 am

Silent Bob wrote:
tamdrin wrote:I didn't mean it in necessarily a bad way, but then why can't other students who are interested in Chogyam Trungpa's Terma's access them outside the Shambhala thing... It seems they have a monopoly on it?


And so they do, unless you're willing to go through their system.


I heard that Dilgo Khyentse rinpoche also has this transmission. If that would be true, then anyone wanting to receive this without Shambala training could just ask Dilgo Khyentse for the transmission.
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby muni » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:28 am

Can the nature be accomplished by/through 10 buddhist tantra techniques, or maybe must add "only" along them.
Dzogchen only possible through Mahayana-Vajrayana? still in no way Dzogchen exclude any fruit of teaching, as all inclusive spontaneous.
Just clarity, no :stirthepot:
Falling down into thoughts' stream, identification arises.
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:04 pm

muni wrote:Can the nature be accomplished by/through 10 buddhist tantra techniques, or maybe must add "only" along them.
Dzogchen only possible through Mahayana-Vajrayana? still in no way Dzogchen exclude any fruit of teaching, as all inclusive spontaneous.
Just clarity, no



Dzogchen does not require the ten tattvas described by the Anutarrayoga tantras, at least not according to Kun byed rgyal po rgyud.

Dzogchen does not require the methods of the vehicles of cause and the vehicles of result.

Even so, these two fact mention above do not place any teaching of Dzogchen "outside" Buddhism even though utterly secret unsurpassed Dzogchen is outside the nine yānas.

As it is said, sems sde is for intellectuals; klong sde is for those who like to meditate; man ngag sde is for those who practice according to intimate instructions.

Then among man ngag sde cycles there is outer, inner, secret and utterly secret, etc.

Still, even the most advanced Dzogchen practitioners go refuge, cultivate bodhicitta and dedicate merits i.e. use the three sublime principles of the path.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby muni » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:53 pm

Namdrol wrote:
muni wrote:Can the nature be accomplished by/through 10 buddhist tantra techniques, or maybe must add "only" along them.
Dzogchen only possible through Mahayana-Vajrayana? still in no way Dzogchen exclude any fruit of teaching, as all inclusive spontaneous.
Just clarity, no



Dzogchen does not require the ten tattvas described by the Anutarrayoga tantras, at least not according to Kun byed rgyal po rgyud.

Dzogchen does not require the methods of the vehicles of cause and the vehicles of result.

Even so, these two fact mention above do not place any teaching of Dzogchen "outside" Buddhism even though utterly secret unsurpassed Dzogchen is outside the nine yānas.

As it is said, sems sde is for intellectuals; klong sde is for those who like to meditate; man ngag sde is for those who practice according to intimate instructions.

Then among man ngag sde cycles there is outer, inner, secret and utterly secret, etc.

Still, even the most advanced Dzogchen practitioners go refuge, cultivate bodhicitta and dedicate merits i.e. use the three sublime principles of the path.


Thank you, Namdrol. :anjali:
Falling down into thoughts' stream, identification arises.
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:20 pm

Let just clarify a point in general -- I was not saying that "Dzogchen is restricted to the nine yanas gradual approach".

There are many Dzogchen texts that explicitly place the path they teach, as opposed to outer common atiyoga, outside the nine yanas.

Even so, this does not render Dzogchen sans Buddhism.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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