Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby muni » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:56 pm

Namdrol wrote: I was not saying that "Dzogchen is restricted to the nine yanas gradual approach".


No, such saying wasn't. clarification is to undo confusions on internet only.
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby heart » Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:36 am

Namdrol wrote:Let just clarify a point in general -- I was not saying that "Dzogchen is restricted to the nine yanas gradual approach".

There are many Dzogchen texts that explicitly place the path they teach, as opposed to outer common atiyoga, outside the nine yanas.

Even so, this does not render Dzogchen sans Buddhism.


If it was outside the nine yanas it would be outside Buddhism. The whole idea of the nine yanas is an Ati perspective anyway. "Outer common atiyoga" what is that?

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:58 pm

heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Let just clarify a point in general -- I was not saying that "Dzogchen is restricted to the nine yanas gradual approach".

There are many Dzogchen texts that explicitly place the path they teach, as opposed to outer common atiyoga, outside the nine yanas.

Even so, this does not render Dzogchen sans Buddhism.


If it was outside the nine yanas it would be outside Buddhism. The whole idea of the nine yanas is an Ati perspective anyway. "Outer common atiyoga" what is that?

/magnus



Hi Magnus:

The system of the nine yānas is actually an Anuyoga perspective, where Dzogchen is conceived of as the result of Anuyoga practice.

However, since the dgongs pa zang thal cycle, the Vima snying thig cycles, etc., frequently define the most secret unsurpassed great perfection cycle as not part of the nine yānas I am pretty comfortable in asserting there is a dzogchen that lies outside the nine yānas. This is the source of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's assertion that there are two approaches to Dzogchen, one gradual, based on the nine yānas; and one which does not depend on the nine yānas at all, Dzogchen as a completely self-contained system of realization that does not depend at all on the vehicles of cause and result.

The Lamp The Severs Proliferation from the Copper Lettered Collection in the Vima snying thig has the following passage which will put things in context:

"The conceited vehicles of the nine yānas
do not depart even a an iota from eternalism and annihilationism."

The two can be taught separately, interwoven, or side by side.

Saying that the utterly secret unsurpassed cycle of Dzogchen is outside the nine yānas is the teaching of Nirmanakāya Garab Dorje. Therefore, since it is the teaching of Nirmanakāya Garab Dorje, it is not outside the pale of Buddhism.

Common Atiyoga is the basically sems sde, in this scheme of things.

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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby heart » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:40 am

Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Let just clarify a point in general -- I was not saying that "Dzogchen is restricted to the nine yanas gradual approach".

There are many Dzogchen texts that explicitly place the path they teach, as opposed to outer common atiyoga, outside the nine yanas.

Even so, this does not render Dzogchen sans Buddhism.


If it was outside the nine yanas it would be outside Buddhism. The whole idea of the nine yanas is an Ati perspective anyway. "Outer common atiyoga" what is that?

/magnus



Hi Magnus:

The system of the nine yānas is actually an Anuyoga perspective, where Dzogchen is conceived of as the result of Anuyoga practice.

However, since the dgongs pa zang thal cycle, the Vima snying thig cycles, etc., frequently define the most secret unsurpassed great perfection cycle as not part of the nine yānas I am pretty comfortable in asserting there is a dzogchen that lies outside the nine yānas. This is the source of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's assertion that there are two approaches to Dzogchen, one gradual, based on the nine yānas; and one which does not depend on the nine yānas at all, Dzogchen as a completely self-contained system of realization that does not depend at all on the vehicles of cause and result.

The Lamp The Severs Proliferation from the Copper Lettered Collection in the Vima snying thig has the following passage which will put things in context:

"The conceited vehicles of the nine yānas
do not depart even a an iota from eternalism and annihilationism."

The two can be taught separately, interwoven, or side by side.

Saying that the utterly secret unsurpassed cycle of Dzogchen is outside the nine yānas is the teaching of Nirmanakāya Garab Dorje. Therefore, since it is the teaching of Nirmanakāya Garab Dorje, it is not outside the pale of Buddhism.

Common Atiyoga is the basically sems sde, in this scheme of things.

N


I am sure that is correct. Maybe you can define the view beyond the nine vehicles but how can you define the Dzogchenpa beyond the nine yanas? As you yourself said before they all take refuge, arouse bodhicitta and practice various yidams and so on. Almost all Dzogchen cycles also contain various Tantric practices and Mahayana attitudes. This goes for the Nyingthik and Yangtik and so on also. Something that believes itself to be independent and free from the "conceited vehicles of the nine yanas" should not lean so heavily on those vehicles. Like the Kunjed Gyalpo, it is a Dzogchen Tantra pointing out the ultimate view of Dzogchen for the practitioners of the lower yanas, in particular the Mahayoga and Anuyoga, so it is solidly within the tradition of the nine yanas. Or else all these people like Jax and Sönam that reads the Kunjed Gyalpo as basically a good reason to consider the nine yanas as unimportant and unnecessary are correct. I am afraid I see no middle path there.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Mariusz » Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:40 am

heart wrote:I am sure that is correct. Maybe you can define the view beyond the nine vehicles but how can you define the Dzogchenpa beyond the nine yanas? As you yourself said before they all take refuge, arouse bodhicitta and practice various yidams and so on. Almost all Dzogchen cycles also contain various Tantric practices and Mahayana attitudes. This goes for the Nyingthik and Yangtik and so on also. Something that believes itself to be independent and free from the "conceited vehicles of the nine yanas" should not lean so heavily on those vehicles. Like the Kunjed Gyalpo, it is a Dzogchen Tantra pointing out the ultimate view of Dzogchen for the practitioners of the lower yanas, in particular the Mahayoga and Anuyoga, so it is solidly within the tradition of the nine yanas. Or else all these people like Jax and Sönam that reads the Kunjed Gyalpo as basically a good reason to consider the nine yanas as unimportant and unnecessary are correct. I am afraid I see no middle path there.

/magnus


Yes. For instant realization one has to be instant realizer. Who are instant realizers in Buddhism these days? Are you ready for the mind direct Dzogchen transmission of the buddhas (Tib. gyalwa gong gyü; Wyl. rgyal ba dgongs brgyud) from the dharmakaya Samantabhadra or the sign Dzogchen transmission of the vidyadharas (Tib. rigdzin da gyü; Wyl. rig 'dzin brda brgyud) from Vajrasattva in this very instant, here and now. So called Dzogchen outside all 9 yanas is wishful only.

Moreover, the thinking on Gradual or Instant is the matter not only Dzogchen in Buddhism. Even Yogacara agrees it is possible, when instant realization "beyond all reference points" outside the Mind - so called mental non-engagement, let alone Mahamudra HYT realization of Clear Light "outside" any effort, and so on. These all are the buddhist wishes only, whatever Dzogchen or not.
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:50 pm

heart wrote:
I am sure that is correct. Maybe you can define the view beyond the nine vehicles but how can you define the Dzogchenpa beyond the nine yanas?



The texts of the utterly secret unsurpassed great perfection place itself outside the nine yānas.




As you yourself said before they all take refuge, arouse bodhicitta and practice various yidams and so on. Almost all Dzogchen cycles also contain various Tantric practices and Mahayana attitudes.


Fo people of the best fortune with intermediate capacity -- who need an anuyoga approach.


This goes for the Nyingthik and Yangtik and so on also. Something that believes itself to be independent and free from the "conceited vehicles of the nine yanas" should not lean so heavily on those vehicles.


The utterly secret unsurpassed cycle does not. It does not make use of them at all.


Like the Kunjed Gyalpo, it is a Dzogchen Tantra pointing out the ultimate view of Dzogchen for the practitioners of the lower yanas, in particular the Mahayoga and Anuyoga, so it is solidly within the tradition of the nine yanas.


Agreed, it is not part of the utterly secret unsurpassed cycle. However, if you understand the meaning of the utterly secret unsurpassed cycle then it opens up the meaning of texts like Kun byed rgyal po causing them to be read differently. Just as, for example, sems sde allows one to read tantras like the Manjushrinamasamgiti differently.

Or else all these people like Jax and Sönam that reads the Kunjed Gyalpo as basically a good reason to consider the nine yanas as unimportant and unnecessary are correct.


It is not an "either or" thing. It is a question of good fortune and past accumulations. That's it. Anyway, I agree with you that for the most part, no one is free from a mind and a dualistic vision. Therefore, we have the nine yānas to address this condition, depending on practitioner and capacity. But also, as you know very well, the real practice of Dzogchen has nothing to do with mind, and therefore, nothing to do with the nine yan̄as.

The true practice of Dzogchen is based on wisdom. The nine yānas is based on mind. That is the basic difference.

This is not my idea, magnus. This is what is explained in many Dzogchen texts and upadeshas. Moreover, this is also explained by our mutual master, Norbu Rinpoche. It may be hard to understand, but it is true. There is a Dzogchen pratice that is not part of the nine yānas approach. Norbu Rinoche has dedicated his life to explaining this properly.
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:51 pm

Mariusz wrote:
Yes. For instant realization one has to be instant realizer. Who are instant realizers in Buddhism these days? Are you ready for the mind direct Dzogchen transmission of the buddhas (Tib. gyalwa gong gyü; Wyl. rgyal ba dgongs brgyud) from the dharmakaya Samantabhadra or the sign Dzogchen transmission of the vidyadharas (Tib. rigdzin da gyü; Wyl. rig 'dzin brda brgyud) from Vajrasattva in this very instant, here and now. So called Dzogchen outside all 9 yanas is wishful only.

Moreover, the thinking on Gradual or Instant is the matter not only Dzogchen in Buddhism. Even Yogacara agrees it is possible, when instant realization "beyond all reference points" outside the Mind - so called mental non-engagement, let alone Mahamudra HYT realization of Clear Light "outside" any effort, and so on. These all are the buddhist wishes only, whatever Dzogchen or not.


Well, since you have convinced yourself, far be it from me to condition you otherwise.
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Mariusz » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:13 pm

Namdrol wrote:Well, since you have convinced yourself, far be it from me to condition you otherwise.


By saying "wishful" I meant just practice according to one's own master of Dzogchen, without be "conditioned" for instant or for gradual. Is "instant" or "outside 9 yanas" helpful for individual practice or just cause for high-expectations. 9 yanas system means for me simply : Dzogchen is the peak, culmination of Buddhism and the state of final realization in Buddhism. Maybe the same is for you but we use different terminology? I wish we all have "good fortune and past accumulations".
Last edited by Mariusz on Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:34 pm

Mariusz wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Well, since you have convinced yourself, far be it from me to condition you otherwise.


By saying "wishful" I meant just practice according to one's own master of Dzogchen, without be "conditioned" for instant or for gradual. Is your "instant" or "outside 9 yanas" helpful for your practice in your daily life?


It is based on personal experience. If you have it, then you have it. And if you don't, you don't. There is no point in arguing about it or speculating.

There is a Dzogchen path that is not gradual, and is outside of the nine yānas, as hard as it may seem to be able to understand this.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby heart » Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:02 pm

Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:
I am sure that is correct. Maybe you can define the view beyond the nine vehicles but how can you define the Dzogchenpa beyond the nine yanas?



The texts of the utterly secret unsurpassed great perfection place itself outside the nine yānas.




As you yourself said before they all take refuge, arouse bodhicitta and practice various yidams and so on. Almost all Dzogchen cycles also contain various Tantric practices and Mahayana attitudes.


Fo people of the best fortune with intermediate capacity -- who need an anuyoga approach.


This goes for the Nyingthik and Yangtik and so on also. Something that believes itself to be independent and free from the "conceited vehicles of the nine yanas" should not lean so heavily on those vehicles.


The utterly secret unsurpassed cycle does not. It does not make use of them at all.


Like the Kunjed Gyalpo, it is a Dzogchen Tantra pointing out the ultimate view of Dzogchen for the practitioners of the lower yanas, in particular the Mahayoga and Anuyoga, so it is solidly within the tradition of the nine yanas.


Agreed, it is not part of the utterly secret unsurpassed cycle. However, if you understand the meaning of the utterly secret unsurpassed cycle then it opens up the meaning of texts like Kun byed rgyal po causing them to be read differently. Just as, for example, sems sde allows one to read tantras like the Manjushrinamasamgiti differently.

Or else all these people like Jax and Sönam that reads the Kunjed Gyalpo as basically a good reason to consider the nine yanas as unimportant and unnecessary are correct.


It is not an "either or" thing. It is a question of good fortune and past accumulations. That's it. Anyway, I agree with you that for the most part, no one is free from a mind and a dualistic vision. Therefore, we have the nine yānas to address this condition, depending on practitioner and capacity. But also, as you know very well, the real practice of Dzogchen has nothing to do with mind, and therefore, nothing to do with the nine yan̄as.

The true practice of Dzogchen is based on wisdom. The nine yānas is based on mind. That is the basic difference.

This is not my idea, magnus. This is what is explained in many Dzogchen texts and upadeshas. Moreover, this is also explained by our mutual master, Norbu Rinpoche. It may be hard to understand, but it is true. There is a Dzogchen pratice that is not part of the nine yānas approach. Norbu Rinoche has dedicated his life to explaining this properly.


I don't know Namdrol. I am practicing a cycle belong to the "utterly secret unsurpassed cycle" it for sure has a yidam practice. You take refuge and so on, just in a different way. There might be a few text that don't mention these practices of the lower yanas like the Yeshe Lama, but when Jigme Lingpa explain how he applied these teachings in retreat all the lower yanas comes up. I like Norbu Rinpoche but I am not exactly convinced by your arguments.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:09 pm

heart wrote:I don't know Namdrol. I am practicing a cycle belong to the "utterly secret unsurpassed cycle" it for sure has a yidam practice. You take refuge and so on, just in a different way. There might be a few text that don't mention these practices of the lower yanas like the Yeshe Lama, but when Jigme Lingpa explain how he applied these teachings in retreat all the lower yanas comes up. I like Norbu Rinpoche but I am not exactly convinced by your arguments.

/magnus


There is yang gsang bla med, and then there is yang gsang bla med.

These are not arguments, magnus. These are just statements of facts.

These are things stated in many places in many Dzogchen tantras and upadeshas, kama and terma.

I have no need to convince you. This is what I have discovered to be true. And I have verified this in the teachings of Garab Dorje personally, in a number of cycles of dzogchen teachings. This is not something I am repeating merely on the basis of ChNN's words, etc.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby heart » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:09 pm

Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:I don't know Namdrol. I am practicing a cycle belong to the "utterly secret unsurpassed cycle" it for sure has a yidam practice. You take refuge and so on, just in a different way. There might be a few text that don't mention these practices of the lower yanas like the Yeshe Lama, but when Jigme Lingpa explain how he applied these teachings in retreat all the lower yanas comes up. I like Norbu Rinpoche but I am not exactly convinced by your arguments.

/magnus


There is yang gsang bla med, and then there is yang gsang bla med.

These are not arguments, magnus. These are just statements of facts.

These are things stated in many places in many Dzogchen tantras and upadeshas, kama and terma.

I have no need to convince you. This is what I have discovered to be true. And I have verified this in the teachings of Garab Dorje personally, in a number of cycles of dzogchen teachings. This is not something I am repeating merely on the basis of ChNN's words, etc.


Oh, I don't think that but texts can be very deceiving when not in an actual practice context. I know we had this discussion before and that you probably is thinking that I am clinging to the lower yanas, but I also know you been a bit ambivalent about this in the past. Anyway, feel free to suggest cycles that is completely free from the nine yanas. Like I said many times ChNN is not an example of this since he teach many things from the nine yanas. Looking for such a teacher you just end up with Jax (a person from esangha that now gives direct introductions and teach an approach free from the nine yanas).

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Mariusz » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:39 pm

Namdrol wrote:But also, as you know very well, the real practice of Dzogchen has nothing to do with mind, and therefore, nothing to do with the nine yan̄as. The true practice of Dzogchen is based on wisdom. The nine yānas is based on mind. That is the basic difference.


I agree if it means: the practice of Dzogchen starts with “thoroughly cutting through” the Mind (Wyl. Sems) by the Introduction in the Pristine Awareness (Wyl. Rig-pa) when revealing primordial purity (Wyl. Ka-dak) it sould by stabilized and also after this stability in primordial purity (Wyl. Ka-dak) should be “crosses over” it by the realization of spontaneous accomplishment (Wyl. Lhun-Grub)? Is it means for you also?

But if one never had the Introduction there is practice of course which perfectly agrees with yogacara and it is not outside Buddhism which contains 9 yanas only. It is not something new or revolutionary, only pure Buddhism beyond all extremes, agreement with Madhyamaka and Yogacara. Is it?

Sorry for late editing.
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:49 pm

heart wrote: I know we had this discussion before and that you probably is thinking that I am clinging to the lower yanas, but I also know you been a bit ambivalent about this in the past.


No -- I think you are just presenting a very modern and conventional Nyingma view. Which is fine, but you need to recognize how much influence this modern, conventional Nyingma view has been defensively shaped by polemics against the trends like Aro lugs sems sde, early Nyingthig and so on that developed in an environment free of such polemical constraints. The most important polemicist in this respect would be Sapan. I understand his point of view very well, but I think he is biased.

I have been ambivalent about this, not because I don't accept the idea, but because people who declare these things usually don't why they are saying it, just repeating things they have heard, like parrots.


Anyway, feel free to suggest cycles that is completely free from the nine yanas.


Well, the first that comes to mind would be the Vima Nyinthig.


Like I said many times ChNN is not an example of this since he teach many things from the nine yanas.


Yes, he does. However, don't believe for a second that you can peg ChNN in this way just because he teaches a lot of secondary practices.

Looking for such a teacher you just end up with Jax (a person from esangha that now gives direct introductions and teach an approach free from the nine yanas).


Not necessarily, some people wind up with ChNN.

N
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:53 pm

Mariusz wrote: It is not something new or revolutionary, only pure Buddhism beyond all extremes, agreement with Madhyamaka and Yogacara. Is it?


I can't really discuss this any further. It would not be appropriate.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby tamdrin » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:53 pm

if you can watch this without desire your practice is advanced..

http://rosaacosta.com/?p=28653
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Pero » Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:35 am

tamdrin wrote:if you can watch this without desire your practice is advanced..

http://rosaacosta.com/?p=28653


Hehe, I'm afraid having or not having desire by itself is not really a good criteria for whether one's practice is advanced or not.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby tamdrin » Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:36 am

Jesus it was a joke... Just enjoy the video...
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Pero » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:33 am

tamdrin wrote:Jesus it was a joke... Just enjoy the video...


LOL sorry. Probably didn't take it as such because I was studying, have an exam on Monday and Tuesday so I was a little uptight. :smile:
But I don't actually find her that attractive.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Mariusz » Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:30 am

BTW I used in my last post only rhetorical questions. I simply do not understand how distinguish between Dzogchen practice outside 9 yanas and Dzogchen practice inside 9 yanas, whatever any kind of practice. For me it has no logic. Even after the recognition Rigpa one has to practise, accumulating merit, respect the law of karma and so on other buddhist topics. Practice of Thogal is used only in Dzogchen when working with Rigpa nevertheless I was taught it is the pinnacle of Buddhism, the 9 Yana. But thank for discussion :namaste:
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