Rainbow Body - Why?

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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:39 am

Sherab, pardon the editing of my previous post which I apparently did while you were responding. I rephrased things and made a further point.
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Sherab » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:46 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Sherab wrote:Subtle body in vajrayana = the complex of tsa, lung and tigle.


Yes, I know what the subtle body is. Does this mean you're unaware of the relevance of tsa, lung, and tigle to Dzogchen practice, particularly togal (through which the body of light is realized)?

The fact that Dzogchen does not involve meditating on the channels, winds, and tigle (like one does in deity yoga's completion stage with signs) should not lead you to the mistaken assumption that tsa, lung, and tigle are somehow irrelevant to Dzogchen. In fact, togal teachings speak a great deal about them, with a couple special wisdom channels only being mentioned in Dzogchen tantras.

No, I am not thinking along the line that you think I am thinking.
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Sherab » Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:52 am

Astus wrote:...the rainbow body's significance and its uniqueness.

My own view is that no other practice focus on returning even the coarse body (build up from sub-atomic particles) to its original state (rainbow body). As I see it, other practices focus on returning either the mind or/and subtle body to its original state.
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Astus » Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:32 am

Sherab,

Yes, good point. And explains why I ask the importance of doing that with the body made of the four elements. It rots away after death anyway if not cremated or eaten by animals.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Aemilius » Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:05 am

I find it srange that it hasn't been expressed clearly why the rainbow body is produced?? In other tantric traditions it has been said that the illusory body is made so that one can through it help the innumerable beings of samsara for as long as samsara lasts.
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:55 am

Aemilius wrote:I find it srange that it hasn't been expressed clearly why the rainbow body is produced?? In other tantric traditions it has been said that the illusory body is made so that one can through it help the innumerable beings of samsara for as long as samsara lasts.


Hello Aemillius, :)

Thanks for the reply.

Better can we say, the Rainbow Body is produced due to causes and the firm decission or motivation is here made in the Trekchod practice. :bow:


Best wishes with your individual practice
Kalden Yungdrung
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby wisdomfire » Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:22 am

kirtu wrote:Rainbow body is also explicitly mentioned as a result of Vajrayogini practice in the Sakya tradition and not as a result of Dzogchen in this case. This was in fact the point of my statement to Namdrol on the similar esangha thread.

Kirt


are you sure Vajrayogini leads to rainbow body?
Last edited by wisdomfire on Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby wisdomfire » Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:28 am

heart wrote:Kalden,

I think you misunderstood the question. When the Buddha died he left a body behind so why would full enlightenment include a rainbow body?

/magnus


there is one type of rainbow body, the person is still living, but he has already attained the rainbow body. Occasionally if you take photograph of him, you will see it.

I have met several lamas who have attained this. It is not fake.
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby wisdomfire » Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:33 am

Sherab wrote:
Astus wrote:...the rainbow body's significance and its uniqueness.

My own view is that no other practice focus on returning even the coarse body (build up from sub-atomic particles) to its original state (rainbow body). As I see it, other practices focus on returning either the mind or/and subtle body to its original state.



Our body is born of karma. Karma has to be totally purified. So return back to pure wisdom elements. That's what i think

There are several types of rainbow bodies. Some just shrink, some total dissolution.
Last edited by wisdomfire on Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby wisdomfire » Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:42 am

Aemilius wrote:I find it srange that it hasn't been expressed clearly why the rainbow body is produced?? In other tantric traditions it has been said that the illusory body is made so that one can through it help the innumerable beings of samsara for as long as samsara lasts.


i think the illusory body is different from the rainbow body. Can anyone verify?

I have read it somewhere said that Dalai Lama commented that in the Gelug tradition very few people have attained the rainbow body... so i think it may also be possible in the different tibetan buddhist traditions.
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby heart » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:09 am

wisdomfire wrote:
Aemilius wrote:I find it srange that it hasn't been expressed clearly why the rainbow body is produced?? In other tantric traditions it has been said that the illusory body is made so that one can through it help the innumerable beings of samsara for as long as samsara lasts.


i think the illusory body is different from the rainbow body. Can anyone verify?

I have read it somewhere said that Dalai Lama commented that in the Gelug tradition very few people have attained the rainbow body... so i think it may also be possible in the different tibetan buddhist traditions.


Yes, illusory body in the 6 yogas is a method while rainbow body is a result.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Pero » Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:26 pm

wisdomfire wrote:there is one type of rainbow body, the person is still living, but he has already attained the rainbow body. Occasionally if you take photograph of him, you will see it.

I have met several lamas who have attained this. It is not fake.


I very much doubt that this is the Great Transference Body of Dzogchen though, considering that only two great masters in history were able to attain it as far as I know (Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra, though sometimes Garab Dorje is considered as well). And next to that, had they attained it, I think normal people wouldn't be able to see them anymore.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Aemilius » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:12 pm

heart wrote:
wisdomfire wrote:
Aemilius wrote:I find it srange that it hasn't been expressed clearly why the rainbow body is produced?? In other tantric traditions it has been said that the illusory body is made so that one can through it help the innumerable beings of samsara for as long as samsara lasts.


i think the illusory body is different from the rainbow body. Can anyone verify?

I have read it somewhere said that Dalai Lama commented that in the Gelug tradition very few people have attained the rainbow body... so i think it may also be possible in the different tibetan buddhist traditions.


Yes, illusory body in the 6 yogas is a method while rainbow body is a result.

/magnus



That sounds suspectful to me, Magnus. In Padmasambhava's Teachings on the Six Bardos (B. A. Wallace & Gyatrul Rimpoche) there is a teaching of two illusory bodies, the first illusory body, also called the impure illusory body, and a second illusory body, also called the pure illusory body. Do you wish to make path and result separate? When it has been taught repeatedly that path and result are not two different things !!
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby kirtu » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:18 pm

wisdomfire wrote:
kirtu wrote:Rainbow body is also explicitly mentioned as a result of Vajrayogini practice in the Sakya tradition and not as a result of Dzogchen in this case. This was in fact the point of my statement to Namdrol on the similar esangha thread.


are you sure Vajrayogini leads to rainbow body?


I am sure that In the Sakya tradition it is taught that the ultimate result of Vajrayogini is enlightenment resulting in the rainbow body. In esangha Namdrol stated that this was not the same as the Dzogchen rainbow body.

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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby heart » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:11 pm

heart wrote:
Aemilius wrote:
Yes, illusory body in the 6 yogas is a method while rainbow body is a result.

/magnus



That sounds suspectful to me, Magnus. In Padmasambhava's Teachings on the Six Bardos (B. A. Wallace & Gyatrul Rimpoche) there is a teaching of two illusory bodies, the first illusory body, also called the impure illusory body, and a second illusory body, also called the pure illusory body. Do you wish to make path and result separate? When it has been taught repeatedly that path and result are not two different things !!


In Dzogchen rainbow body is not a practice it is the result you get from practicing Tögal. Your actual body dissolve in a rainbow. There are several different rainbow bodies but that is more or less the essence of it.
The illusory body teachings, that you mention above, is very clearly described as a practice. It something you do. There might also be a fruition called illusory body, I don't know, but it is not the same as rainbow body.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby benchen » Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:27 pm

Did Sakyamuni Buddha attained rainbow body ??

How many masters attained rainbow body so far in written recordings ??
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:05 pm

Heruka wrote:Its a good question, perhaps the body of light is better way to understand. The body is made of elements, fire, water, wind, earth etc, and in there course form, we have a body of karma, karmic in nature etc, we also have a vajra body which is the elements in their pure form. Practices to purify the karmic body, allows the coarse elements to purify into their pure nature, the karmic body decays and dies, the vajra body does not. Most will settle into dharmakaya peace, the elements will dispearse etc, the dharmakaya is nothing, there is no activity. The shrinkage you mention is partial rainbow body, the water has returned to water, the fire settles into fire elements etc, and outwards the flesh (gross karmic body) shrinks. this is not the same as the great transfer, where death is not even reached. Here the individual has purified into a dimension that still is active, and can interact with others of like vision, activity is on going and brings benefits to all. The images of people in rainbow colours are not accurate but just a visual representation of a principle at work. sorry i have not the time to explain more, but just in a simple way.

dzogchen is concerned principly with the nirmanakaya
apologise for the awful typos/


I can't imagine a better explanation _/\_

Kind wishes,
Laura
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Aemilius » Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:42 am

heart wrote:
heart wrote:
Aemilius wrote:
Yes, illusory body in the 6 yogas is a method while rainbow body is a result.

/magnus



That sounds suspectful to me, Magnus. In Padmasambhava's Teachings on the Six Bardos (B. A. Wallace & Gyatrul Rimpoche) there is a teaching of two illusory bodies, the first illusory body, also called the impure illusory body, and a second illusory body, also called the pure illusory body. Do you wish to make path and result separate? When it has been taught repeatedly that path and result are not two different things !!


In Dzogchen rainbow body is not a practice it is the result you get from practicing Tögal. Your actual body dissolve in a rainbow. There are several different rainbow bodies but that is more or less the essence of it.
The illusory body teachings, that you mention above, is very clearly described as a practice. It something you do. There might also be a fruition called illusory body, I don't know, but it is not the same as rainbow body.

/magnus


It is said that the Six Yogas of Naropa all belong to the Perfection Stage, they are something you do after have achieved awakening. There seem to be a lot of things to do after you have attained the awakening or the enlightenment. Historically the Tantra was available to you only after you had attatined the awakening through the Sutrayana, through the general and common yana. In the course of centuries more and more of the tantras gradually became public teachings. It seems that at the time of Marpa you generally had to go through a long period of study and practice in the sutrayana, which had to bear some fruit also. After awakening could you embark on study of the tantras.
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Mr. G » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:39 pm

Aemilius wrote: It is said that the Six Yogas of Naropa all belong to the Perfection Stage, they are something you do after have achieved awakening. There seem to be a lot of things to do after you have attained the awakening or the enlightenment. Historically the Tantra was available to you only after you had attatined the awakening through the Sutrayana, through the general and common yana. In the course of centuries more and more of the tantras gradually became public teachings. It seems that at the time of Marpa you generally had to go through a long period of study and practice in the sutrayana, which had to bear some fruit also. After awakening could you embark on study of the tantras.


Hi Aemilius,

I've never heard of perfection stage practices used after awakening. Do you have a source for this so I can read more? :smile:
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby heart » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:56 am

Aemilius wrote:It is said that the Six Yogas of Naropa all belong to the Perfection Stage, they are something you do after have achieved awakening. There seem to be a lot of things to do after you have attained the awakening or the enlightenment. Historically the Tantra was available to you only after you had attatined the awakening through the Sutrayana, through the general and common yana. In the course of centuries more and more of the tantras gradually became public teachings. It seems that at the time of Marpa you generally had to go through a long period of study and practice in the sutrayana, which had to bear some fruit also. After awakening could you embark on study of the tantras.


I am not sure what you mean with "awakening" but the completion stage is practices that you do to achieve enlightenment, they are a part of the path. Rainbow body is fruition.

/magnus
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