Rainbow Body - Why?

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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:09 am

Astus wrote:Maybe I've missed something here in Narraboth's answer but I still don't see the use of dissolving the physical body into rainbow lights besides its obvious miraculous nature that can inspire faith. Also, if we go into the land of wonders, bodhisattvas are capable of all kinds of magic transforming themselves into virtually anything, including buddhas. And that ability is available to a large number of gods, demons and yogis too. So, again, what is so special about the rainbow body that it can be an argument for the superiority of dzogchen?


Honestly there's much more to the significance of rainbow body that is only going to be explained in the context of teachings on togal which explain how wisdom and the 5 elements have yet to be totally liberated in clear light before the fruition of that level of practice (the 4th of the "four visions"). Dzogchen mengagde teaches that even the fruition of trekchod is not quite complete and does not result in the maximum ability to benefit beings (although one's own benefit is completely achieved and a very immense benefit to others is as well, obviously). For people like us, though, I think Narraboth's example of being like ants trying to estimate which skyscraper above us is taller is quite appropriate, even if it is interesting to talk about.
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:53 am

Hello dear Dzogchenpas, :)


To talk about sugar is nice
To taste it is better
To say i like it then
Is the result i guess

Then words can be illusion or very easy be misinterpreted.
Better do the practice.

When i may ask who of You do practice Dzogchen?
Who of You was introduced into your Natural State?

It is not a must to answer but untill now did nobody answered so i guess nobody of You did so........

I know many of You or some of You practice or are inside the gradual way of Mahamudra.
Very good path with her 6 Yogas form Naropa or Niguma (Shangpa Kagyu)

Best wishes with our individual practice
Kalden Yungdrung
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Astus » Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:01 am

Kirtu,

Thanks, liked your reply.

"The realized dzogchen practitioner, no longer deluded by apparent substantiality or dualisms such as mind and matter, releases the energy of the elements that compose the physical body at the time of death."

To me from this it would follow that all who are enlightened, realised emptiness, attains a rainbow body. Thus either nobody else is enlightened or the manifestation of rainbow body depends on something else. Maybe tögal practice creates this habit to in the end dissolve the body - just guessing.

Pema Rigdzin,

"togal which explain how wisdom and the 5 elements have yet to be totally liberated in clear light before the fruition of that level of practice"

If it is necessary to dissolve the physical body (except hair and nails, for whatever reason) to attain maximum buddhahood it looks like to me that then being bound by the body can be overcome only through the elimination of the body (arupaloka is a strange thing then to mention).
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Aemilius » Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:18 am

Urgyen Tulku says in his book Repeating the Words of Buddha that when somebody attains the rainbow body then simultaneously 2000 people attain enlightenment. That would mean something, wouldn't it?
On the other hand it has been told that Etruscans, the people who inhabited Italy before the arrival of Romans, usually all of them just disappeared into thin air after their death! But nobody seems to think that etruscans were enlightened or even knew anything about Dharma!! To "aspire faith in others" is something that can never be taken for granted!! It just doesn't happen!


Astus wrote:Maybe I've missed something here in Narraboth's answer but I still don't see the use of dissolving the physical body into rainbow lights besides its obvious miraculous nature that can inspire faith. Also, if we go into the land of wonders, bodhisattvas are capable of all kinds of magic transforming themselves into virtually anything, including buddhas. And that ability is available to a large number of gods, demons and yogis too. So, again, what is so special about the rainbow body that it can be an argument for the superiority of dzogchen?
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:05 pm

Astus wrote:Kirtu,

Thanks, liked your reply.

"The realized dzogchen practitioner, no longer deluded by apparent substantiality or dualisms such as mind and matter, releases the energy of the elements that compose the physical body at the time of death."

To me from this it would follow that all who are enlightened, realised emptiness, attains a rainbow body. Thus either nobody else is enlightened or the manifestation of rainbow body depends on something else. Maybe tögal practice creates this habit to in the end dissolve the body - just guessing.

Pema Rigdzin,

"togal which explain how wisdom and the 5 elements have yet to be totally liberated in clear light before the fruition of that level of practice"

If it is necessary to dissolve the physical body (except hair and nails, for whatever reason) to attain maximum buddhahood it looks like to me that then being bound by the body can be overcome only through the elimination of the body (arupaloka is a strange thing then to mention).


OK lemme start by stating the obvious, that I'm getting in wayyy over my head in trying to explain this because it's so unfathomably subtle and nuanced that I can't possibly understand it yet, let alone explain it well.

That said, I must first clarify that the "rainbow body" Dzogchen is calling the supreme realization is not the one that happens when great practitioners die and they dissolve into light except for their hair and nails (and it's only the hair and nails because those are not living tissues with channels pervading them)... That realization is beyond profound, for sure, and it indicates attainment of buddhahood, but Dzogchen is talking about the "jalu phowa chenpo" or "rainbow body of great transference" which happens not at death but rather during a practitioner's life at the precise moment he or she accomplishes the 4th vision of togal wherein even the smallest traces of obscurations are liberated within clear light. In this case, death is basically bypassed. It must be understood that Dzogchen recognizes levels of buddhahood (which Anuttaryoga tantra does as well, though Dzogchen enumerates a few more with slightly more nuance).

Now, this jalu phowa chenpo does not reflect any such need to shed or dissolve the body as if it's somehow getting in the way... Dzogchen already says that for someone who has some realization of the natural state, when they die and are no longer bound within the physical body it's like a full grown garuda cracking open its shell and taking flight. That is in terms of realizing primordial purity through the practice of trekchod. So it's not that physicality is a problem (as the experience of the skandhas is really just a result of ignorance), it is that one needs to completely liberate within clear light one's primordial wisdom and the obscurations that function as causes of experiencing phenomena as other than the 5 wisdoms - as other than the energy of one's own primordial rigpa. This means one is going the distance and also completely realizing spontaneous presence, the accomplishment of togal. In other words, primordial purity is related more to the emptiness aspect and spontaneous presence more to the manifestation aspect. Anyhow, I believe this jalu phowa chenpo is just one's own inward realization, in terms of ordinary beings' perception of one, meaning they would not perceive one any differently. I'm pretty sure I remember Namdrol confirming that's what the teachings say.

In the end, honestly, I've had this stuff explained to me about ignorance being "bound by wisdom" through realization of trekchod but not completely liberated until realization of togal, but it's beyond my capacity to understand. Levels of buddhahood are beyond splitting hairs for us mere mortals (even though we're truly Guru Rinpoche). I mean if we can't possibly comprehend the realization of buddhahood as it's presented in Sutra, how are we going to fathom even more subtle distinctions of realization beyond that? It's kind of pointless speculation. The teachings just say what they say and people can either have some faith in it or suspend judgment or don't buy it (though people who have the merit to receive these teachings someday I assume would naturally have faith in them when receiving them properly from someone who knows what he/she's talking about). All I can say is that the teachings on this I've received made enough sense to me to make me feel it is the most plausible explanation I've come across and not at all some form of elitism (not that anyone hinted at that; I'm just saying).

One important thing to note is that it's my understanding that the distinctions between levels of buddhahood do not have anything to do with differences or levels in one's own benefit but rather an ever-increasing magnitude of ability to spontaneously benefit others, which again is like splitting hairs for us because any level of buddha activity is inconceivable. Anyway, I doubt I could possibly say anything more on the subject.
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby narraboth » Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:34 pm

thanks for Aemilius mentioning a point that how attaining rainbow body benefit beings. So not just powa chenpo rainbow body, even just transferring normal body to light at death you will liberate all beings in your body to enlightenment. I remember a master argued: 'why spent so much time on "teaching" one or two students? if you can achieve rainbow body, thousands of beings will attain buddhahood at the same time.' He was encouraging Dzogchen practitioners to do more retreats rather than seeking students everywhere.

For Astus's question, it's an interesting one, but I still don't see it's an important one... sorry :tongue:
( Of course none talking in this forum is as important as practicing :popcorn: )
Like Nyingmapa also says that Nyingma has six supriorities than Sarma, including the king offered more gold to Indian Panditta than people after. Of course Sarmapa can argue: 'so what?'

Nyingmapa spent lots gold for Dharma, Sarmapa spent less; Dzogchenpa can attain certain kind of rainbow body, others maybe not. That's it. For people who feel those are suprior, they are suprior, otherwise, 'so what?'

For the question itself, I can only offer what i know from books. As I said, I am too far any of those great things, so it's not for me to compare 'if a rainbow body mahasiddha can benefit more beings than not rainbow body one.' Can anyone here?
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:43 pm

Sherab wrote:To me, a rainbow body attests to the highest realization possible. Since everything arose from rigpa, the attainment of the rainbow meant that you attained the ability to reverse the whole process, including your physical body.

Also, I understand that the practitioner may choose not to manifest the rainbow body at the time of his/her passing away if that is of no benefit to anyone.


As you'll see in Heruka's post above or in my last post, what you're talking about is not the rainbow body of the great transfer but dissolution of the physical body at the time of death, which is not the complete realization according to Dzogchen. However, at that still very exalted realization, it is simply a natural function of purifying the gross channels into "light" and to the extent one accomplishes that, one's body will dissolve at death. To my understanding there is no choosing to dissolve or not dissolve. The only thing I know of that is said to impede the process is if the practitioner is a vajra master to many disciples and there is impurity of samaya among the disciples.
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Astus » Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:16 pm

Pema Rigdzin,

Oh, so the rainbow body at death and in life are different. Or is it the case that jalu phowa chenpo is a name for the 4th vision's result?

Found this (Longchen Nyingthig of the Ancient Ones Tradition by Ven. Khenpo Namdrol Rinpoche):

"There are two kinds of rainbow body: the general rainbow body, where the body dissolves completely into light, and the ʻRainbow Body of the Great Transferenceʼ, Jalu Phowa Chenpo, where the ordinary body is transformed into a rainbow-like body and the individual lives for centuries for as long as they can benefit beings, appearing to them from time to time. Such was the case with both Vimalamitra and Guru Rinpoche."

So it is a change of body then from physical to light in order that they can stay here longer. An interesting note here is for instance what we find in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta that the Buddha could have stayed for more than a kalpa if asked so. Again, this phenomenon that one could stay as a quasi-immortal by changing the nature of the body is a bit strange to me for the reasons that a buddha has no limit of emanation bodies and transforming a body to something else sounds pointless then. I'm just trying to make some sense of its importance...
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby heart » Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:28 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:To talk about sugar is nice
To taste it is better
To say i like it then
Is the result i guess

Then words can be illusion or very easy be misinterpreted.
Better do the practice.

When i may ask who of You do practice Dzogchen?
Who of You was introduced into your Natural State?


You seriously think that only Bonpos actually practice Dzogchen and are the only ones that have received direct introduction, empowerments, rigpai tsal wangs and proper instructions? :tongue:

/magnus
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby heart » Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:30 pm

Aemilius wrote:Urgyen Tulku says in his book Repeating the Words of Buddha that when somebody attains the rainbow body then simultaneously 2000 people attain enlightenment. That would mean something, wouldn't it?
On the other hand it has been told that Etruscans, the people who inhabited Italy before the arrival of Romans, usually all of them just disappeared into thin air after their death! But nobody seems to think that etruscans were enlightened or even knew anything about Dharma!! To "aspire faith in others" is something that can never be taken for granted!! It just doesn't happen!


Good point Aemilius.

/magnus
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:52 pm

heart wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:To talk about sugar is nice
To taste it is better
To say i like it then
Is the result i guess

Then words can be illusion or very easy be misinterpreted.
Better do the practice.

When i may ask who of You do practice Dzogchen?
Who of You was introduced into your Natural State?


You seriously think that only Bonpos actually practice Dzogchen and are the only ones that have received direct introduction, empowerments, rigpai tsal wangs and proper instructions? :tongue:

/magnus



Hello Magnus, :)

Thanks for your reply.

Are you joking? :D

I am asking only something and do not get this untill now answered.......
Well one is free to give answers of course but no response must mean something.

Do You think really that a Bonpo has such a narrow minded idea about the world of Dzogchen?
No, that can not serious meant by you, therefore i guess you are joking.

We know very good what is going on in the world of Dzogchen because we too have 3 lineages of Dzogchen and Nyingma is not the only form of Dzogchen therefore.

And there is not much difference between Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen and i am only interested in the similarities and not in those differences.

But in case of differences one may discuss this of course, or not?

So what bothers you dear Magnus ?

Well as a Bon Dzogchen practitioner do i like to come in contact with other Dzogchen practitioners to make some exchanges about our practice etc.

Therefore my question does someone of You practice or is only reading or studying this topic on an acedemic degree like on the University? Well both is possible, isn' t it?

Sure if this would be possible and accepted on this sub-forum..........

But just in case of Dzogchen is it very difficult to get an impression or better said awareness without the practice as foundation.


Best wishes for your practice
Kalden Yungdrung
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby kirtu » Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:08 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:To my understanding there is no choosing to dissolve or not dissolve. The only thing I know of that is said to impede the process is if the practitioner is a vajra master to many disciples and there is impurity of samaya among the disciples.


I remember Namdrol talking about this. He actually said that the majority of rainbow body manifestations were people no one knew or suspected were realized because they didn't have any or many students. He also said that HH Dudjom Rinpoche apparently began manifesting the rainbow body but the process stopped due to samaya breakage or divisions from the students.

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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Sönam » Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:59 pm

ChNN says that he would never realize the rainbow body, because he has too many student ... he had to make the choice.

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby heart » Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:14 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
So what bothers you dear Magnus ?

Well as a Bon Dzogchen practitioner do i like to come in contact with other Dzogchen practitioners to make some exchanges about our practice etc.

Therefore my question does someone of You practice or is only reading or studying this topic on an acedemic degree like on the University? Well both is possible, isn' t it?

Sure if this would be possible and accepted on this sub-forum..........

But just in case of Dzogchen is it very difficult to get an impression or better said awareness without the practice as foundation.


Best wishes for your practice
Kalden Yungdrung[/color]


Kalden,

Since this forum is open for all there is no way you can guarantee that everyone that write here, and even less read here, are actually Dzogchen practitioners. Anyway even if everyone would answer your question how would you know if it is true? Anyway I don't see why you need to know this to answer the question "Rainbow Body - Why?"?
But to satisfy your curiosity, yes, I am a Dzogchen practitioner.

/magnus
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Aug 07, 2010 3:07 pm

Kalden,

Since this forum is open for all there is no way you can guarantee that everyone that write here, and even less read here, are actually Dzogchen practitioners. Anyway even if everyone would answer your question how would you know if it is true? Anyway I don't see why you need to know this to answer the question "Rainbow Body - Why?"?
But to satisfy your curiosity, yes, I am a Dzogchen practitioner.
/magnus




Hello Magnus, :)

Thanks for your kind reply.

Ok this forum cannot guarentee if someone is lying, but that is outside this forum also true.
So we never can have guarantees about what is happening in secret, like lying etc.

But nevertheless is it personal for me interesting to know who is practizing.

I see differences between academics and practitioners regarding Dzogchen and thought for me personal therefore that it would be important to know if persons know the taste.

Everybody would know Jean-Luc Achard. Well he is a trustable source to discuss Dzogchen with.
His interpretations and explanations are very reliable therefore. He is living in the woods like a hermit and is on top of that at the Sorbonne in Paris teaching (PHD). Further 25 years practising Dzogchen.

Such a person do we need also here as a trustable factor in case of difficult questions or not true answers.
That is what i do not know here, such a person, because i do not know what you are practising etc.

Like You told we have readers here and they (can) accept what is written here.
If things are not to the point written and explained here, then that is not ok for the greenhorns who never read about Dzogchen or practised it.

Even Namdrol who is very well learned to a certain degree did not have insight into Dzogchen, so he opened that Dzogchen forum to get informed. But who was the expert? I guess Jean-Luc from the Bon Forum.

So therefore do i like to know who is practising Dzogchen because others can have a certain acceptance about the reliability of the writings.

Then may be a Dzogchen forum for persons who do not practise and have there general informations on an academic level
and
A Dzogchen forum for the ones who practice and who can make exchanges.

But i allready understand that this would be my personal vision and not in accordance with many otherones wishes and the trashcan is very nearby

So i am a little worried about this Dzogchen forum regarding explanations done in a certain (personal limited) view and done in a formal view.


Will illustrate this more precise.

Know a very high levelled, well learned and practising Dzogchen teacher.
He made a Dzogchen explanation made in his own vision of experience.
This was written in a book and published
It is at first forbidden to do this or not so custom
Here is that personal experience of Rigpa or Natural State,which is fully against that we have learned, true.

Nevertheless was this person corrected.

May be is it now more clear to you dear Magnus what were my intentions about asking who is practising.
Dzogchen is realy not easy at all to explain and needs profesional Dzogchen practitioners with a very high acedamic education to make it reliable for us.

Yes, i have so my doubts and hope that these doubts could be cleared away by some investigations/questions about the persons here on this Dzogchen forum.


Best wishes for our practice

Kalden Yungdrung
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IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby ronnewmexico » Sat Aug 07, 2010 7:35 pm

To add my 2 cents...

This appears a challenge to drogchen, and participants beliefs that constituate such issue, of a particular of that issue. The initial posting while a valid and reasonable initial question, as challenge, should not be introduced in this fashion in this particular place on the board.

It should be introduced in a place where such issues are expected to be favorable to discussion. Forums on this board that are inclined to debate and discussion of issue.

As per example I started a thread on "Pure land... why", but would not introduce it in a forum where pure land were the belief structure of those that were the constituancy of that forum. To do so would be rude non compassionate and aggressive. Those that perhaps want to go only to a forum on Dogchen, as practictioners of Dogchen, may not want to find challenge to such beliefs stated on their particular forum. It may tend to lead them away from their faith in that vehicle.

So this thread as debateing in nature, should not be here as this forum is for those that believe in those things but in another place more favorable.
It is lacking compassion to have it here in this fashion. Perhaps that doesn't matter as this is the internet, but it seems it may.
I don't want to interact in things that are in their inception incorrect speaking, as that constitutes a karmic fault of sorts, and as such will not participate other than to bring attention to this error...
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Heruka » Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:43 am

ronnewmexico wrote: and as such will not participate other than to bring attention to this error...



dear friend ronnewmexico, the error is to make others who have a geniune interest in dzogchen turn away from it. We are all interested in Buddhism in one shade or another, that is why we are here. some maybe secret dzogchenpas, others may only, merely, be curious about the intellectual core of the teachings, either way, are we not to judge others as to their whys? Dzogchen is not elite club of buddhism. it does however contain very serious commitments, and that rests with each and every practioner to determine for themselves. :namaste: the topic is about rainbow body, our genuine vajra brothers and sisters like pema, have written very good posts, the information is about our real nature, and not some fake fantasy, so we should not be afraid of that.
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:47 am

Heruka wrote:
Dzogchen is not elite club of buddhism.
it does however contain very serious commitments,
the topic is about rainbow body,
the information is about our real nature, and not some fake fantasy



Hello Heruka, :)

Good morning.

Thanks for your suggestions.
When i may make some additional suggestions here?

Heruka wrote:
Dzogchen is not elite club of buddhism.

Many adhere, that Dzogchen would not be Buddhism, because some think it was not teached by the Buddha Shakyamuni but by Garab Dorje or Prahevajra who lived a few years after the Paranirvana of the Buddha Shakyamuni. I guess that there is a link with the Guhyasamaya Tantra where some asspects from the mind are explained in the Dzogchen way, but that seems to be only a few lines in this Tantra. Am not sure if this is the Guhyasamaya Tantra, but You would probably know which Tantra is meant, i hope.
From the other side is Dzogchen Buddhism, because it was teached by Buddha Tonpa Shenrab.

Elite club, yes this is seen like that, because Dzogchen was a long time ago in Bon, only teached from Teacher to student. But after 1959 and may be some time before, they did realise that the lineage could be totaly gone or disappear...... Then Dzogchen was spread to the multitude. We know Tantra and its secret script Sanskrit + Samayas / Damchig as protection, because the multitude could never understand it. Well now who can understand Dzogchen? I guess that is the reason why Dzogchen is the so called elite club of exceptional persons and nevertheless also seen in Nyingma as well in Bon as the crown on their teachings. If the persons feel themselves elite? i agree that the behaviour of those unrealised Dzogchenpas is unacceptable and see them as Dummies, and not as the classical example of that Crazy Yogi. They behave as dummies because they missed some essential points in the Dzogchen teachings to understand.These so called Dzogchenpas are the smut in the Dzogchen. They mislead people with their wrong behaviour ...... That is what many people, or the not Dzogchenpas disgust and that is true, its a shame and the most bad advertisement regarding Dzogchen :emb:


it does however contain very serious commitments,

Dzogchenpas who have no realisations of their Natural State are reborn like everybody.
Of course after the attaining of the Rainbow Body one can assume every body
That does the Bodhisattva according his wishes also.
But that is not the motivation for a Dzogchenpa not to reach the Rainbow Body
It is simmilar to, why attain the Rainbow Body? Because the Buddha Shakyamuni left his body on earth. He followed the way of the Bodhisattva with His 254 lives on earth and mostly lived in Benares according the Jatakas.? We have here 2 paths. It is up to us/you, to make a choice or some like potatoes and some rice. So Buddhas are different and not the same. We are hiumans but also not all the same?

Further like everywhere if the Dzogchenpa violates the Compassion he is out. Because the Rainbow Body or Dharmakaya is standing on the pilar of Compassion.
Further is the ethical behaviour like everywhere a base.
So we have Sutra -Tantra and Dzogchen united in the Dzogchenpa where there automaticly arises the related commitments.

My view is that of Dzogchen,
My meditation practice is that of the Yidam,
My personal conduct is that of a sutra adept.
~Tokden Rinpoche Drime Yungdrung



the topic is about rainbow body,

Welll to start with the head of the body is very quick. Lets start in Dzogchen better with the feet and that is allready difficult enough. Or start with the milk instead of the butter. That is also more to follow for others who were never engaged in Dzogchen.

We can avoid that fake mentioned fantasy?
I guess that fantasy or illusion is without the explanation also there and forms a reason for many not to be able to understand the Rigpa on which Dzogchen is based.

Best wishes for our personal emancipation
Kalden Yungdrung
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Heruka » Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:28 pm

our eternal bon yungdrung friend wrote.....

because some think it was not teached by the Buddha Shakyamuni but by Garab Dorje or Prahevajra who lived a few years after the Paranirvana of the Buddha Shakyamuni. I guess that there is a link with the Guhyasamaya Tantra where some asspects from the mind are explained in the Dzogchen way, but that seems to be only a few lines in this Tantra. Am not sure if this is the Guhyasamaya Tantra, but You would probably know which Tantra is meant, i hope.
From the other side is Dzogchen Buddhism, because it was teached by Buddha Tonpa Shenrab.



the buddhist tantras are quite explict about how the teachings beyond cause and effect arrived in this world system. regardless, the bon 9 ways also have their history as well. but histories remain for intellectual ego discussion on paper etc, unless one has integrated into guru yoga, then thats all it will remain, a history lesson.

:namaste:
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:07 pm

Heruka wrote:
the buddhist tantras are quite explicit about how the teachings beyond cause and effect arrived in this world system. regardless, the bon 9 ways also have their history as well. but histories remain for intellectual ego discussion on paper etc, unless one has integrated into guru yoga, then thats all it will remain, a history lesson.


Tashi delek Heruka :)

Thanks for your reply.

History can be a bridge sometimes and is very handy in case of doubts.
Further can one learn from history, like does an event repeat and the reason why, (nearly philosophy)?
Well also some Tantras are not so quick accepted like the Nyingma did (11th century) with the Guhyagarbha Tantra.

So, it is indeed very not explicit when we study Buddhist Tantra /history.


The Guhyagarbha tantra

is a vital part of Tibet’s Nyingma (”ancient”) lineages. And yet, ever since the 11th century, when certain partisans of the new translations or Sarma, questioned the authenticity of the Guhyagarbha tantra, its status became a disputed issue in Tibet. :shock:

The most detailed and sustained attack on the authenticity of the Guhyagarbha tantra was written by the 11th century translator Gö Khugpa Lhetse, based on his failure to find any lineage for the tantra in India and the fact that, according to his judgement, it didn’t resemble genuine Indian Tantras.

Gö Khugpa’s criticism was rather rash: features which he found suspect in the Guhyagarbha are in fact also found in tantras of the new translation period that he accepted. Nevertheless, enough doubt remained that the tantra was excluded from the scriptural canon (bka’ ‘gyur) compiled in the 14th century.
According to some Nyingma apologists, Gö Khugpa attacked the tantra because he had been refused certain transmissions by Zurpoché Shakya Jungne, one of the most influential Nyingma figures of that period. (Tibetan famous politics ?) :?

Well dear Heruka this is very nice to know the background because if we do the practice we make visualistaions of Lineage, Buddha etc.(Guru Yoga is based on this) and sometimes this is wrong so the practice is not that 100%.

Especially the Indian Tantras are not all based on the Indian Buddha Shakyamuni.
One is the Kalachakra for instance, when/if i am right.?
Other would be Dorje Phagmo / Vajra Vahari? etc.

But You are right some not Buddhist Tantras are very effective nevertheless they stem from the Shaiva Tradition (Yogini Tantras).

We talked about lineage(s) and that is in Buddhism always traced back to the Buddha from that lineage, because the adherent is Buddhist.

I have difficulties with that mixed up things in the lineage and cannot make that slogan of:
The Bodhisattva can reincarnate him self in many forms to benefit beings.

So jesus Christ was a Bodhisattva but i am not a christian the teachings are good but the execution bad
That is general counting for me personal.

All in all do I feel myself more comfortable in a lineage which has not so much political engagements or involvements


So i come back to/in relation history and see here very clear some evident truths to clear doubts and when these are cleared i do my practice much more comfortable or authentic.

Further can i not be in a lineage who was/is engaged in politics etc.
Therefore am i not a catholic
Changed from catholisism, to Vajrayana and saw here after a long time the same historical happenings :o

But everything is changing or in emancipation......


:focus:

Best wishes for our individual practice
Kalden Yungdrung
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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