Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby ZOOM » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:29 am

Jikan wrote:
ZOOM wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Every practitioner that I know who follows an authentic teacher will attain total realization either in this life, the bardo or in the natural nirmanakāya buddhafields.

This is what my teachers state, this is what the tradition states.

And yes, you need to be the student of a realized master.


So you don't have to train as hard as you can.
Just doing the minimum your master requires will be enough...


Why would you make such an assumption?

The minimum any competent master would require of you is everything you are capable of doing. That's true across Buddhist traditions from what I've seen and read.


Knowing human nature, if that would be true then most students would drop out pretty fast.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Ivo » Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:53 am

Zoom, you have some very valid points. I don't know why no one is explaining here that the attainment of the rainbow body is generally a product of the very special practice ot Togyal - a practice which requires much effort and which, in order to be brought to this particular conclusion needs to be done in strict retreat. Very few practitioners are actively and seriously engaged in Thogyal at this point in time. The rainbow body does not result from regular contemplation/resting in Rikpa, even if this is authentic. Other attainments result from that and they are described very extensively in the Dzogchen literature.

And, strictly speaking, the Guru does not do it for you, in the bardo or anywhere else, because the Guru is just our own twisted samsaric perception of the buddha nature. He/she is as external, or internal, as you want him/her to be, but never absolutely so.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:05 am

:soapbox:
Ivo wrote:Zoom, you have some very valid points. I don't know why no one is explaining here that the attainment of the rainbow body is generally a product of the very special practice ot Togyal - a practice which requires much effort and which, in order to be brought to this particular conclusion needs to be done in strict retreat. Very few practitioners are actively and seriously engaged in Thogyal at this point in time. The rainbow body does not result from regular contemplation/resting in Rikpa, even if this is authentic. Other attainments result from that and they are described very extensively in the Dzogchen literature.

And, strictly speaking, the Guru does not do it for you, in the bardo or anywhere else, because the Guru is just our own twisted samsaric perception of the buddha nature. He/she is as external, or internal, as you want him/her to be, but never absolutely so.


It is easier to bring it conclusion in the bardo.

Of course, having met a path, it is up to you follow, as the Buddha said "i cannot wash away your misdeeds with water, nor remove your suffering with my hand, but i can show you the path to liberation."

Nevertheless, without a realized teacher of Dzogchen, it is difficult to make any progress on the path Of Dzogchen. If one does not have confidence that one's teacher is really a buddha, well, one will not make much progress on the path no matter how much one practices this or that technique.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Fa Dao » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:38 am

Ivo..let us not forget Longde and Yangti..
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Ivo » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:51 am

Fa Dao wrote:Ivo..let us not forget Longde and Yangti..

:smile: That would make for a very complicated discussion, one which I certainly wouldn't want part in here. :) But of course, you have a point.
I reacted only because I saw the assumption that the usual contemplation most Dzogchen practitioners try to achieve on a daily basis should somehow result in the attainment of the rainbow body in this life. This is quite far from correct.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby ZOOM » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:53 am

Ivo wrote:Zoom, you have some very valid points. I don't know why no one is explaining here that the attainment of the rainbow body is generally a product of the very special practice ot Togyal - a practice which requires much effort and which, in order to be brought to this particular conclusion needs to be done in strict retreat. Very few practitioners are actively and seriously engaged in Thogyal at this point in time. The rainbow body does not result from regular contemplation/resting in Rikpa, even if this is authentic. Other attainments result from that and they are described very extensively in the Dzogchen literature.

And, strictly speaking, the Guru does not do it for you, in the bardo or anywhere else, because the Guru is just our own twisted samsaric perception of the buddha nature. He/she is as external, or internal, as you want him/her to be, but never absolutely so.


I agree with your view.
Good insight into the true meaning of the guru! :thumbsup:
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:41 am

ZOOM wrote:
Ivo wrote:...because the Guru is just our own twisted samsaric perception of the buddha nature. He/she is as external, or internal, as you want him/her to be, but never absolutely so.


I agree with your view.
Good insight into the true meaning of the guru! :thumbsup:


The Dzogcehn point of view of about gurus is taught in The Magical Dimension of Sound Tantra, the root tantra of all Dzogchen teachings:

    Gurus of perfect characteristics
    are the source of all qualities,
    the ones who sustain the basis of perfect awakening.
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there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby alpha » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:57 am

I guess lots of people suffer from the inability to see their gurus as buddha.
But my understanding is that one way to go beyond this limitation is to understand and make a connection between their ability to discover their own nature and the fact that this was only possible because of the transmission received from one's teacher.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:02 pm

ZOOM wrote:
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
ZOOM wrote:
Certainly, feel free to blindly believe in anything you want.

I am sure if there is one thing that would cause Budda to be turning in his grave then it's "Buddhists" who don't think critically and for themselves but instead blindly believe the words in books or from some gurus!


Are you for real?

It's simply a fact that the lineage masters have taught that those of middling faculty will be enlightened in the bardo and those of lesser faculty in a pure realm.


What exactly does that mean?
You just have to do the minimum of training your guru requires & pay your membership fee and your guru will take care that you will be enlightened after death?
I mean, it has to be your guru who takes care of it...otherwise people wouldn't believe adamantly that you have to have a guru or you won't attain enlightenment. Because, you can learn from books as well as you can learn from your guru. Many books are compiled out of speeches of gurus and reading those speeches does not lead to a worse learning success than hearing the speeches directly standing in front of the guru. And hearing the speeches of the guru is all that most students get concerning their communication with their guru. Only the few who practically live with their guru get more.


There are a lot of bizarre things being said in this thread. A lot of assumptions are being made which I think come from other yogas. In atiyoga the practice is the nature of the mind of the lama.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:02 pm

ZOOM wrote:You just have to do the minimum of training your guru requires & pay your membership fee and your guru will take care that you will be enlightened after death?


Actually, in Vajrayāna in general, after receiving empowerment, as long was one scrupulously maintains samaya, liberation is guaranteed in seven lifetimes.

I mean, it has to be your guru who takes care of it...otherwise people wouldn't believe adamantly that you have to have a guru or you won't attain enlightenment.


There is no means of entering any Vajrayāna path without a Guru — ergo, no Guru, no path, no awakening by means of that path. That is why the Guhyasamaja Tantra states:

    The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Sangha,
    likewise, the Guru is the Sangha,
    the Guru is great glorious Heruka.

Because, you can learn from books as well as you can learn from your guru.


One cannot received transmission from a book. Having made an effort to receive transmission and the precious oral instructions which are not contained in any book from the mouth of the Guru, then one can rely on books as a supplement.

Many books are compiled out of speeches of gurus and reading those speeches does not lead to a worse learning success than hearing the speeches directly standing in front of the guru.


First, you must have a connection with the lineage. That means you must have a guru. And even so, quite frankly hearing the teachings directly has the quality of transmission, of being in the same state at the same time as the teacher. You just do not get that with a book. It is much better to have received the reading transmission of the Dharma text you wish to follow so that you have a living connection with that teaching. There are many Dharma texts you really are not allowed to read without such transmission. There are many Dharma texts that have one to one transmissions.

For mantra, it is indispensable to have the reading transmission, in other words, you cannot successfully practice any mantra without first having received the lung, the sole exceptions being the mantras of Avalokiteshvara, Tara, Mañjuśri, Śakyamuni and some others. But for deities like Vajrayogini, Kalacakra, etc., it is indispensable.

And hearing the speeches of the guru is all that most students get concerning their communication with their guru. Only the few who practically live with their guru get more.


A realized guru's job is the teach through body and voice. For example, everything that a teacher like Chogyal Namkhai Norbu (and HH Dalai Lama, HH Sakya Trizin etc.) does is a teaching, the way he walks, dresses, eats, laughs, smiles, frowns, goes to the bathroom, washes, sleeps, wakes up, i.e., the way he lives and the way he dies.

It is important to make time to spend attending one's guru. But you do not have to spend your life doing so. Even so, serving the guru is an important part of practice, and the fastest, most excellent way to earn merit.

In reality all a guru can do is show one the path. There is nothing a guru can do more than that. There is nothing you can do more than receive their transmission and practice. You practice, and when you have questions, you ask. That's it. His or her job is to give transmission, your job is to apply transmission and realize what they have realized.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Ivo » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:06 pm

:good:
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Paul » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:08 pm

ZOOM wrote:The answer is obvious: Only very few Dzogchen practitioners will attain rainbow body
because only very few Dzogchen practitioners are mentally capable to achieve the Natural State of Mind!

The very few Dzogchen practitioners who achieve the Natural State of Mind and stay in it for longer periods of time will attain rainbow body!

All the others who don't, won't!


It is best to look at what great teachers have said on matters like this, not make up our own ideas.

There had been a prediction from the Lotus-Born master that both Karmey Khenpo and Kongtrul would manifest the rainbow body at the time of death, a sign of great realization. Perhaps it was due to their extensive efforts to benefit others-they were always busy with their many disciples-that neither ended up manifesting the rainbow body.

There are many factors involved in whether a practitioner attains the rainbow body. Karmey Khenpo, for instance, did reach the level at which all mental phenomena dissolve back into the basic nature of reality: the exhaustion of concepts and phenomena. But even though at that exalted level he should have displayed the rainbow body-the outward sign of this state of realization-he did not do so.

Likewise, the terma revelations of Chokgyur Lingpa predicted that Kongtrul would leave in a rainbow body when he passed away. But this was prevented because his activities on behalf of sentient beings were too encompassing. One major reason for this is that when there are a lot of disciples, then there are sure to be some broken samayas by some of them; broken samayas have consequences for the teacher and so can prevent the manifestation of a rainbow body. The tantric teachings describe the rainbow body with remainder: an occurrence that depends upon the purity of samaya of disciples and benefactors.

But there are exceptions: not too long ago, Nyagla Perna Dudul attained the rainbow body when he died in the middle of his camp of five hundred disciples; it seems none of them managed to prevent it. Still, most other teachers with the same level of realization, and who have taught openly and widely to numerous disciples, typically do not attain a rainbow body, despite the possibility that they would have done so if they had had fewer students. That is probably why it is taught, "If you want to attain the rainbow body, don't have too many disciples"


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That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby smcj » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:27 pm

...very few Dzogchen practitioners are mentally capable to achieve the Natural State of Mind!

I'm not much into Dzogchen, so I really shouldn't even be participating in this discussion, but from my non-Dzogchen based perspective I think it more the case of "…very few Dzogchen practitioners are karmically capable of achieving the Natural State of Mind." It is not inappropriate to talk about karmic obstacles to realization, so if people are having problems they might want to address the issue.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby amanitamusc » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:32 pm

Zoom do you happen to be a student of Andrew108?
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Karinos » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:45 pm

I only wonder, how would you know that very few attain rainbow body?
Caves and retreat houses of North India, Nepal, Bhutan are full of yogis.
Who is checking? There is no global register of yogis on cave duty ...

:oops:
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby kirtu » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:Anyway, whether your corpse shrinks or you wake up in the bardo, your body still reverts to the five lights of pure consciousness [ye shes].


Which is unobserved by ordinary beings.

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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby kirtu » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Punya wrote:waking up in the bardo do as well? (but not saying that's easy).


Achieving Buddhahood in the bardo is much easier than in this life. Why? It is because in the bardo state we have seven times more clarity. Buddha Vajrasattva states in the Victor’s Speech Tantra

    After that, in the bardo of rebirth the present unobstructed awareness with complete sense organs has seven times more clarity.


But one's negative emotions are also unimpeded thus making it difficult unless one has a very high level of clarity already.

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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby kirtu » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:56 pm

ZOOM wrote:Why do only very few Dzogchen practitioners attain rainbow body compared to the high number of Dzogchen practitioners in the world?...because only very few Dzogchen practitioners are mentally capable to achieve the Natural State of Mind!


No. Many people are *capable*.

Masters are inhibited because of samaya breeches on the part of their students.
Students are inhibited because of samaya breeches and because very few practitioners can maintain the natural state in daily life. Even then, few people seem to completely purify their aggregates. That very pesky relative world with the reassertion of our habitual tendencies (that is what few people purify).

It is more easy to become an Arhat than attain rainbow body.

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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:11 pm

kirtu wrote:It is more easy to become an Arhat than attain rainbow body.


This is really not the case. Who ever taught you this?
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Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:14 pm

kirtu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Punya wrote:waking up in the bardo do as well? (but not saying that's easy).


Achieving Buddhahood in the bardo is much easier than in this life. Why? It is because in the bardo state we have seven times more clarity. Buddha Vajrasattva states in the Victor’s Speech Tantra

    After that, in the bardo of rebirth the present unobstructed awareness with complete sense organs has seven times more clarity.


But one's negative emotions are also unimpeded thus making it difficult unless one has a very high level of clarity already.

Kirt


For this reason we have Dzogchen teachings, which make waking up in the bardo relatively easy. Of the 21 capacities of Dzogchen practitioners listed the Rig pa rang shar tantra it is only the last three or four who need to take rebirth in a pure nirmanakāya realm in order to attain buddhahood.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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