Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby ZOOM » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:26 am

Malcolm wrote:
ZOOM wrote:The only Dzogchen practitioners we can be sure that they achieved something meaningful at all in their training are those attaining rainbow body during life or at death.


I think you really need to study the teachings a bit more before making such confidence pronouncements.

All these grades of practitioners are described in detail by the Buddha in such tantras as the Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and so on, where the whole process is very precisely described, how many days they remain in the bardo of dharmatā, how many emanations they will have after achieving liberation in the bardo and so on.


I think you really need to develop the ability to think critically and for yourself instead of blindly believing in books or gurus!
I feel like discussing with a christian fundamentalist: "The bible says XY, therefore it is so!"
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby ZOOM » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:27 am

Visible results are the name of the game.
Like transforming your body into energy or leaving foot prints in solid rock.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:37 am

ZOOM wrote:books or gurus!


The way things work in Vajrayāna Dharma is that we do not make assertions about the teachings unless they are backed up in the words of the Buddha, which are found in Dzogchen and other kinds of tantras.

A guru is indispensable in Dzogchen teachings, as well as all other Vajrayāna teachings. Without a guru, there is no path. Without a path, there is no result, much less rainbow body. Without a Guru we cannot receive the transmissions for the books in which Dzogchen teachings are recorded. So a Guru is indispensable as the root of the path.
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:39 am

ZOOM wrote:Visible results are the name of the game.


No, not really. The name of the game is waking up, attaining buddhahood for the benefit of all sentient beings. It does not matter much if it happens in this life, the bardo or the next life.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Norwegian » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:40 am

Malcolm wrote:
ZOOM wrote:books or gurus!


The way things work in Vajrayāna Dharma is that we do not make assertions about the teachings unless they are backed up in the words of the Buddha, which are found in Dzogchen and other kinds of tantras.

A guru is indispensable in Dzogchen teachings. Without a guru, there is no path. Without a path, there is no result, much less rainbow body. Without a Guru we cannot receive the transmissions for the books in which Dzogchen teachings are recorded. So a Guru is indispensable as the root of the path.


Agreed 100%.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby ZOOM » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:53 am

Malcolm wrote:
ZOOM wrote:books or gurus!


The way things work in Vajrayāna Dharma is that we do not make assertions about the teachings unless they are backed up in the words of the Buddha, which are found in Dzogchen and other kinds of tantras.

A guru is indispensable in Dzogchen teachings, as well as all other Vajrayāna teachings. Without a guru, there is no path. Without a path, there is no result, much less rainbow body. Without a Guru we cannot receive the transmissions for the books in which Dzogchen teachings are recorded. So a Guru is indispensable as the root of the path.



Why do only very few Dzogchen practitioners attain rainbow body compared to the high number of Dzogchen practitioners in the world?

Is the answer that you have to be the member of an old Dzogchen lineage or that you have to be the student of an accomplished Dzogchen teacher?

No, because if that was the reason then every member of an old Dzogchen lineage or every student of an accomplished Dzogchen teacher would attain rainbow body.

But this is not the case.
Last edited by ZOOM on Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby ZOOM » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:58 am

Malcolm wrote:
ZOOM wrote:Visible results are the name of the game.


No, not really. The name of the game is waking up, attaining buddhahood for the benefit of all sentient beings. It does not matter much if it happens in this life, the bardo or the next life.


Yes, and the only way to know if someone is approaching or attaining enlightenment are visible signs as those I was already talking about.

Certainly, feel free to blindly believe in anything you want.

I am sure if there is one thing that would cause Budda to be turning in his grave then it's "Buddhists" who don't think critically and for themselves but instead blindly believe the words in books or from some gurus!
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Motova » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:22 am

ZOOM wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
ZOOM wrote:Visible results are the name of the game.


No, not really. The name of the game is waking up, attaining buddhahood for the benefit of all sentient beings. It does not matter much if it happens in this life, the bardo or the next life.


Yes, and the only way to know if someone is approaching or attaining enlightenment are visible signs as those I was already talking about.

Certainly, feel free to blindly believe in anything you want.

I am sure if there is one thing that would cause Budda to be turning in his grave then it's "Buddhists" who don't think critically and for themselves but instead blindly believe the words in books or from some gurus!


Before getting all gung-ho about the rainbow body and siddhis, you should probably read some introductory books on Tibetan Buddhism.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:28 am

ZOOM wrote:
Yes, and the only way to know if someone is approaching or attaining enlightenment are visible signs as those I was already talking about.


That is not the only way to know whether someone is approaching or has attained awakening.

Such signs are actually for those who lack faith and require miracles.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:31 am

ZOOM wrote:
Is the answer that you have to be the member of an old Dzogchen lineage or that you have to be the student of an accomplished Dzogchen teacher?

No, because if that was the reason then every member of an old Dzogchen lineage or every student of an accomplished Dzogchen teacher would attain rainbow body.

But this is not the case.[/u][/b]


Every practitioner that I know who follows an authentic teacher will attain total realization either in this life, the bardo or in the natural nirmanakāya buddhafields.

This is what my teachers state, this is what the tradition states.

And yes, you need to be the student of a realized master.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Dragon » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:51 am

Motova wrote:
ZOOM wrote:Yes, and the only way to know if someone is approaching or attaining enlightenment are visible signs as those I was already talking about.

Certainly, feel free to blindly believe in anything you want.

I am sure if there is one thing that would cause Budda to be turning in his grave then it's "Buddhists" who don't think critically and for themselves but instead blindly believe the words in books or from some gurus!


Before getting all gung-ho about the rainbow body and siddhis, you should probably read some introductory books on Tibetan Buddhism.


You know... I was thinking something while reading the responses in this thread. Not sure if this is taking the discussion off topic, but seeing how it's getting a bit heated, hey, why not?

On one hand I see those individuals who like to follow [Tibetan Buddhist] teachings to the letter and aim for perfection in their practices. This is quite amazing and admirable, obviously. If a text says, "You must recite this mantra 100,000 times," people do it without hesitation. But why? What is so magical about all of these numbers and timelines and such? Is it really because of the number that's assigned to it, or is it meant to help instill some confidence and faith in our practice by repetition? Or is it really a matter of following exactly what the texts say? Many would claim if a guru has received instruction from [x,y,z], then we surely must trust what was instructed and follow the practice perfectly. Otherwise, if we don't, what is the point of the guru receiving this information and passing it onto us? There needs to be structure and a formula on our path. Otherwise, it would just be chaos, right? Teachers/gurus need to possess a vast amount of knowledge because there are a vast amount of people on the path. It makes sense for those more "senior students" to be well-read and versed in the studies. It is, after all, how we keep the lineage and tradition alive. So, yes, gurus and books are extremely important, and those who dedicate their lives to studying and passing on the knowledge are invaluable.

But then, I see, those individuals who are not too keen on all of the numbers and reading volumes and volumes of texts, and memorizing details to the point of obsession. But they are good practitioners in the sense that they know how to be present, and they are the epitome of compassion and have unshakable faith in their guru. And when the guru tells them, "This practice is good, you should do it," they will obediently do it, with not a single doubt or hesitation in their devotion. And it is not blind devotion, either, but rather a willingness to help as best as they can. Sure, they may not recite the mantra 100,000 times, and they may have only read about 5 Dzogchen text books and know the names of only about 10 teachers, but when they practice, they do it from the heart. Will they achieve rainbow body this way? Who knows? The more learned senior students would assume not, considering that is not the "outline" and they are missing important practices. We cannot jump from "beginner to expert" by just having incredible faith and confidence, right? I mean, we cannot go from learning addition and subtraction to suddenly understanding and applying advanced calculus, right? But maybe... just maybe... there are those few individuals where the rules do not apply for whatever reason. Maybe it has to do with past lives. Maybe they were scholars before and in this life they are working on that "faith" aspect-- who knows?!

Anyway, the point I think I'm trying to make here is that I understand where ZOOM is coming from, but I also agree with the other posters like Malcolm in the sense that we do need to treat the teachings of the guru/books as sacred. They are specific for a reason. We are all on different paths and on different stages of the path. Therefore that doesn't mean anyone is right or wrong in their thinking. The important fact is that we are all on the path. Right? Right. And I think we can all agree that with a path like Dzogchen, without the guru and subsequent books, there is no path. It is pointless. We require the teachings and transmissions from qualified lineage holders in order to place us on the path. What comes after that is totally up to us. And like ChNNR always says, the most important practice-- the most essential practice-- we can do, is Ati Guru Yoga and being present. Anything after that? Extra awesome bonuses that lead us even further along the path. Right? Right. :thumbsup:
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:44 am

ZOOM wrote:
...and every good Christian goes to heaven after death!
I think it's absurd ...

Jigme Lingpa disagrees with you.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Dragon » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:50 am

Alfredo wrote:Never mind rainbows--I want the power to shoot fire from my shoulders, and water from my ankles.


You could still have the rainbows-- you could be like a Care Bear and shoot them from your tummy.

Image
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby ZOOM » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:52 am

Malcolm wrote:
ZOOM wrote:
Is the answer that you have to be the member of an old Dzogchen lineage or that you have to be the student of an accomplished Dzogchen teacher?

No, because if that was the reason then every member of an old Dzogchen lineage or every student of an accomplished Dzogchen teacher would attain rainbow body.

But this is not the case.[/u][/b]


Every practitioner that I know who follows an authentic teacher will attain total realization either in this life, the bardo or in the natural nirmanakāya buddhafields.

This is what my teachers state, this is what the tradition states.

And yes, you need to be the student of a realized master.


So you don't have to train as hard as you can.
Just doing the minimum your master requires will be enough...
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:52 am

ZOOM wrote:
Certainly, feel free to blindly believe in anything you want.

I am sure if there is one thing that would cause Budda to be turning in his grave then it's "Buddhists" who don't think critically and for themselves but instead blindly believe the words in books or from some gurus!


Are you for real?

It's simply a fact that the lineage masters have taught that those of middling faculty will be enlightened in the bardo and those of lesser faculty in a pure realm.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby smcj » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:02 am

My old LamRim text, "Writings of Kalu Rinpoche" says that the path of pointing out instructions and Mahamudra/Dzogchen is for people of the highest capacities.

Guess that why it didn't work for me... :thinking:
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Mother's Lap » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:06 am

smcj wrote:My old LamRim text, "Writings of Kalu Rinpoche" says that the path of pointing out instructions and Mahamudra/Dzogchen is for people of the highest capacities.

Guess that why it didn't work for me... :thinking:

You were given a pointing out instruction therefore you are of the highest capacities in terms of common Buddhist capacity ranking. Even if you didn't experience rigpa there are methods to bring it to the fore post-DI, where you taught any of them/did you give any of them a go?
Last edited by Mother's Lap on Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:10 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby Jikan » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:06 am

ZOOM wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Every practitioner that I know who follows an authentic teacher will attain total realization either in this life, the bardo or in the natural nirmanakāya buddhafields.

This is what my teachers state, this is what the tradition states.

And yes, you need to be the student of a realized master.


So you don't have to train as hard as you can.
Just doing the minimum your master requires will be enough...


Why would you make such an assumption?

The minimum any competent master would require of you is everything you are capable of doing. That's true across Buddhist traditions from what I've seen and read.
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby smcj » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:18 am

Emakirikiri wrote:
smcj wrote:My old LamRim text, "Writings of Kalu Rinpoche" says that the path of pointing out instructions and Mahamudra/Dzogchen is for people of the highest capacities.

Guess that why it didn't work for me... :thinking:

You were given a pointing out instruction therefore you are of the highest capacities in terms of common Buddhist capacity ranking.

That's not what I've been led to believe, but thanks anyway.

Even if you didn't experience rigpa there are methods to bring it to the fore post-DI, where you taught any of them/did you give any of them a go?

Nope. My "karmic trajectory" is in a different direction anyway. To tell the truth, I'm not all that interested.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?

Postby ZOOM » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:23 am

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
ZOOM wrote:
Certainly, feel free to blindly believe in anything you want.

I am sure if there is one thing that would cause Budda to be turning in his grave then it's "Buddhists" who don't think critically and for themselves but instead blindly believe the words in books or from some gurus!


Are you for real?

It's simply a fact that the lineage masters have taught that those of middling faculty will be enlightened in the bardo and those of lesser faculty in a pure realm.


What exactly does that mean?
You just have to do the minimum of training your guru requires & pay your membership fee and your guru will take care that you will be enlightened after death?
I mean, it has to be your guru who takes care of it...otherwise people wouldn't believe adamantly that you have to have a guru or you won't attain enlightenment. Because, you can learn from books as well as you can learn from your guru. Many books are compiled out of speeches of gurus and reading those speeches does not lead to a worse learning success than hearing the speeches directly standing in front of the guru. And hearing the speeches of the guru is all that most students get concerning their communication with their guru. Only the few who practically live with their guru get more.
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