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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:03 pm 
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ZOOM wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:
Dzogchen attitude is quite unique. Very special. The idea of wanting to have rainbow body or wanting to achieve enlightenment doesn't fit.

What you are implying seems completely absurd to me.
For what reason in your opinion are all those people practicing Dzogchen who finally succeed in attaining rainbow body?

Andrew isn't fully understanding the context in which statements of that nature are found. It isn't that Dzogchen champions an absence of aspiration in relation to liberation, but how that aspiration is addressed in itself is different when it comes to Dzogpachenpo.

The view of Dzogchen proper is unfabricated and free of mind, so assertions which convey that desiring liberation, or working towards liberation in a solely causal setting, are 'delusional' is really just stating that these attitudes relate to the mind. In the sense that mind mistakes itself as a subject which relates to objects and therefore mind objectifies awakening as something it can produce or acquire via causal means.

Dzogchen is criticizing this type of approach, but is not saying one should abandon an aspiration for liberation.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:10 pm 
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His root guru was Changchub Dorje, a terton. Lived til he was 135 or 152 years old. Age disputed due to different numbers for the year of departure. Attained rainbow body. (Teachers of Changchub Dorje: Adzom Drugpa, Nyala Pema Duddul (attained rainbow body), and the Bon master Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen (attained rainbow body)).

Other teachers of ChNN: Togden Ugyen Tenzin (attained rainbow body), Jamyang Khyentse Wangchuk, Ayu Khandro, Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro, Onto Khyenrab Chokyi Ozer, Derge Lama Kunga Palden, Negyab Rinpoche, Drugse Gyurmed Dorje, Bo Gongkar Rinpoche.



Changchub Dorje's daughter also attained the rainbow body

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:11 pm 
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asunthatneversets wrote:
ZOOM wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:
Dzogchen attitude is quite unique. Very special. The idea of wanting to have rainbow body or wanting to achieve enlightenment doesn't fit.

What you are implying seems completely absurd to me.
For what reason in your opinion are all those people practicing Dzogchen who finally succeed in attaining rainbow body?

Andrew isn't fully understanding the context in which statements of that nature are found. It isn't that Dzogchen champions an absence of aspiration in relation to liberation, but how that aspiration is addressed in itself is different when it comes to Dzogpachenpo.

The view of Dzogchen proper is unfabricated and free of mind, so assertions which convey that desiring liberation, or working towards liberation in a solely causal setting, are 'delusional' is really just stating that these attitudes relate to the mind. In the sense that mind mistakes itself as a subject which relates to objects and therefore mind objectifies awakening as something it can produce or acquire via causal means.

Dzogchen is criticizing this type of approach, but is not saying one should abandon an aspiration for liberation.


Thank you for the clarification! :namaste:


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:12 pm 
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orgyen jigmed wrote:
Quote:
His root guru was Changchub Dorje, a terton. Lived til he was 135 or 152 years old. Age disputed due to different numbers for the year of departure. Attained rainbow body. (Teachers of Changchub Dorje: Adzom Drugpa, Nyala Pema Duddul (attained rainbow body), and the Bon master Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen (attained rainbow body)).

Other teachers of ChNN: Togden Ugyen Tenzin (attained rainbow body), Jamyang Khyentse Wangchuk, Ayu Khandro, Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro, Onto Khyenrab Chokyi Ozer, Derge Lama Kunga Palden, Negyab Rinpoche, Drugse Gyurmed Dorje, Bo Gongkar Rinpoche.



Changchub Dorje's daughter also attained the rainbow body


Really? That's great, so there are in fact women who attained rainbow body!
Awesome! :applause:


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:15 pm 
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There is a thread in here somewhere dedicated to women who attained rainbow body. I can't pull it up at the moment but if you do a search you'll find it.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:15 pm 
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What about the teachers of Lopön Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche.
Did some of them attain rainbow body too?

(I found his book Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings very intelligently written btw. My favorite book on the subject so far because it explains very good and it contains no cryptic mumbo-jumbo.)


Last edited by ZOOM on Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:16 pm 
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asunthatneversets wrote:
There is a thread in here somewhere dedicated to women who attained rainbow body. I can't pull it up at the moment but if you do a search you'll find it.


Thanks for the hint! ;)


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:23 pm 
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So could anyone explain to me why Dzogchen training should need pranayama or any other kind of winds training to lead to the goal of enlightenment & rainbow body?
Or is it simply a wrong claim?

According to Lopön Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche, entering the Natural State of mind and staying in it is all that is necessary to attain ultimately rainbow body.
If that is true, why wasting time with training in the channels with the winds etc.?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:33 pm 
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ZOOM wrote:
So could anyone explain to me why Dzogchen training should need pranayama or any other kind of winds training to lead to the goal of enlightenment & rainbow body? Or is it simply a wrong claim?

According to Lopön Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche, entering the Natural State of mind and staying in it is all that is necessary to attain ultimately rainbow body. If that is true, why wasting time with training in the channels with the winds etc.?

Depends on the individual. In the ultimate sense, and ideally one would not need secondary supports to maintain knowledge of their nature. But we're all different, some may need some prānayāma to help support their practice, another person may not and will find a different method which helps them rest in their nature.

When it comes to methods and resting in the view, the method that works is the one that works, no need to limit oneself and reject prānayāma, and no reason to cling to prānayāma and take it to be a sole means. I think you'll find that most Dzogchen teachers recommend some tsa lung as a secondary practice and support for the main view.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:40 pm 
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The body is very important in Dzogchen, maintaining the health and integrity of ones channels and a good circulation of winds are good things to be mindful of.

Apart from the anatomical aspects (of the body) that some Dzogchen principles are related to, health in general is if course important, a healthy body means a longer life, and a longer life means more time for practice.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:01 pm 
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asunthatneversets wrote:
The body is very important in Dzogchen, maintaining the health and integrity of ones channels and a good circulation of winds are good things to be mindful of.

Apart from the anatomical aspects (of the body) that some Dzogchen principles are related to, health in general is if course important, a healthy body means a longer life, and a longer life means more time for practice.


I understand that.
But for example in the 6 Yogas Of Naropa, winds /channels training in form of gtumo is the base for all the "higher" practices. Without gtumo training, the "higher" practices won't work / lead to the attainment of the illusory body.

Therefore I wonder if getting into /achieving & keeping "the Natural State of mind" in Dzogchen which leads to the rainbow body maybe also is only possible with some similar kind of preliminary base work in form of winds/ channel training but nobody talks about it openly because it's secret.
So the question for me is: Can you achieve "the Natural State" and rainbow body without preliminary energy & breath work or not?


Last edited by ZOOM on Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:14 pm 
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You know, like blast enough chi into your brain and you'll enter Thegchod automatically or so.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:22 am 
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Off Topic

I just want to say that it's heartening to see a super villain taking interest in the Buddhadharma. Do we have the makings of a new Milarepa? :smile:


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:30 am 
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TocharianB wrote:
Off Topic

I just want to say that it's heartening to see a super villain taking interest in the Buddhadharma. Do we have the makings of a new Milarepa? :smile:

LOL! :D


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:06 am 
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Aspiration for rainbow body and aspiration for liberation are not the same thing. Liberation is the exhaustion of craving and it is this attitude of not craving that one brings to ones practice in order to end this craving. To replace one type of craving (worldly) with another (spiritual) is not the point. Rainbow body is a non-achievement in the sense that if it happens it is because the practitioner has overcome all types of craving. Craving has been consumed.

I know many practitioners who are mesmerized by rainbow body and it does bring them into contact with Dzogchen. But then they become fantasists and collectors. It seems to me that their craving has increased rather than decreased. So this is something to be very careful about. Although no doubt you will think that I am pissing in your garden.

The quotes I posted should be inspirational. They are for me. If you contact a Dzogchen master and tell them that you want to achieve rainbow body what do you think they would say? If you contact and say that you are interested in putting an end to craving and would like to understand dzogchen in regard to your everyday experiences, you might get quite a positive response.

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"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:55 am 
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Andrew108 wrote:
Aspiration for rainbow body and aspiration for liberation are not the same thing. Liberation is the exhaustion of craving and it is this attitude of not craving that one brings to ones practice in order to end this craving. To replace one type of craving (worldly) with another (spiritual) is not the point. Rainbow body is a non-achievement in the sense that if it happens it is because the practitioner has overcome all types of craving. Craving has been consumed.

I know many practitioners who are mesmerized by rainbow body and it does bring them into contact with Dzogchen. But then they become fantasists and collectors. It seems to me that their craving has increased rather than decreased. So this is something to be very careful about. Although no doubt you will think that I am pissing in your garden.

The quotes I posted should be inspirational. They are for me. If you contact a Dzogchen master and tell them that you want to achieve rainbow body what do you think they would say? If you contact and say that you are interested in putting an end to craving and would like to understand dzogchen in regard to your everyday experiences, you might get quite a positive response.


I think you confuse wanting to attain the rainbow body with fantasizing 24/7 about it.
As long as you are able to reach & stay in the Natural State, all other factors are secondary.
It seems like an intellectual presumption to me that you claim to know how the mind of every Dzogchen master works and that you are able to foretell what every Dzogchen master will do in this or that situation.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:57 pm 
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ZOOM wrote:
So the "primal" mind does not only have the passive ability for insight,
but also has the active force to "dissolve" things or to transform them.


Well perhaps it seems to you that I'm being unfriendly and I apologise if that's the case. If we look at the idea you have posted then this is behind the way I'm posting. We need to be clear that there is no 'primal' mind that can act on something. If we continue with the idea that mind can be a force, then we would have to ask why it is that Dzogchen masters cannot move physical objects with their minds and so on? We might think that self-liberation is something that a well-trained mind does because it has developed this ability. But this is not the Dzogchen view. Dzogchen doesn't have this idea of enlightenment coming about through the power or force of a well-trained mind. Certainly mind-training is important but it is important only up to a point. The pranayama practices are kind of preparatory, rather than ends in themselves. Even when we talk about practices such as Thogal it is very easy to see the experiences as being real and to reify the aspect of mind and consciousness. This would be a mistake. So the attitude I pointed to before is crucial. It is very important.

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The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:19 pm 
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Andrew108 wrote:
ZOOM wrote:
So the "primal" mind does not only have the passive ability for insight,
but also has the active force to "dissolve" things or to transform them.


Well perhaps it seems to you that I'm being unfriendly and I apologise if that's the case.


No problem, thank you. :namaste:

Andrew108 wrote:
If we look at the idea you have posted then this is behind the way I'm posting. We need to be clear that there is no 'primal' mind that can act on something. If we continue with the idea that mind can be a force, then we would have to ask why it is that Dzogchen masters cannot move physical objects with their minds and so on?


Well, Dzogchen masters imprinting hands & feet into solid rock, that seems pretty much like the active display of special powers to me!
Wouldn't you agree?
https://www.facebook.com/notes/dzogchen-khenpo-choga-rinpoche/auspicious-news-my-teacher-lama-karma-attains-rainbow-body/10151794778007773
Quote:
Lama Karma Rinpoche displayed many miraculous achievements in his life, including leaving footprints in rocks.

Image

Andrew108 wrote:
We might think that self-liberation is something that a well-trained mind does because it has developed this ability. But this is not the Dzogchen view. Dzogchen doesn't have this idea of enlightenment coming about through the power or force of a well-trained mind. Certainly mind-training is important but it is important only up to a point. The pranayama practices are kind of preparatory, rather than ends in themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_body
Quote:
Some exceptional practitioners such as Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra are held to have realized a higher type of rainbow body without dying. Having completed the four visions before death, the individual focuses on the lights that surround the fingers. His or her physical body self-liberates into a nonmaterial body of light (a Sambhogakāya) with the ability to exist and abide wherever and whenever as pointed by one's compassion.[7]

source: Matthieu, Richard. 2001. The Life of Shakbar. Ithaca: Snow Lion Publications. pg. 153

Andrew108 wrote:
Even when we talk about practices such as Thogal it is very easy to see the experiences as being real and to reify the aspect of mind and consciousness. This would be a mistake. So the attitude I pointed to before is crucial. It is very important.


Well, the evidence I gave above suggests that the mind in its Natural State has a special power which can be used actively at will:
Imprinting rocks, the ability to go rainbow at will during life after having completed the four visions and then "focusing on the lights that surround the fingers".
:smile:


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:16 pm 
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Andrew108 wrote:

Dzogchen attitude is quite unique. Very special. The idea of wanting to have rainbow body or wanting to achieve enlightenment doesn't fit.


I guess, according to you, that ChNN is a fool then for having stated countless times that he hopes he can achieve rainbow body, that he wants to achieve rainbow body. I guess his attitude is not Dzogchen at all.

M

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:20 pm 
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[quote="Andrew108"]If you contact a Dzogchen master and tell them that you want to achieve rainbow body what do you think they would say? /quote]

Do this practice, then do this practice, then this one, then you if you are diligent you gave the possibility of attaining rainbow body.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

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