Dzogchen & rainbow body

ZOOM
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby ZOOM » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:26 pm

Emakirikiri wrote:Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche also gives teachings very frequently via webcast.

http://melong.com/?page_id=329" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


That's interesting, thank you!
:namaste:

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Losal Samten
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby Losal Samten » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:29 pm

his son is supposed to be the reincarnation of his uncle Togden Ugyen Tendzin

No, his son is the reincarnation of his maternal uncle Khyentse Chokyi Wangchuk; Togden Ugyen Tendzin is his paternal uncle.

http://www.amazon.de/Lamp-That-Enlighte ... B007WL3BLK
Last edited by Losal Samten on Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
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philji
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby philji » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:31 pm

Hi Zoom. My wife and I are travelling from UK to Austria in a couple of weeks for the dzogchen seminar being given at Gomde by Chokling Rinpoche. Rinpoche is authorised to give the transmissions, his father was the renowned yogi Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche.... Wonderful opportunity.
http://www.gomde.at/eng/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ZOOM
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby ZOOM » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:36 pm

Emakirikiri wrote:
his son is supposed to be the reincarnation of his uncle Togden Ugyen Tendzin

No, his son is the reincarnation of Khyentse Chokyi Wangchuk his maternal uncle; Togden Ugyen Tendzin is his paternal uncle.

http://www.amazon.de/Lamp-That-Enlighte ... B007WL3BLK" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Ah, thank you for the clarification! :smile:

Btw:
(from another forum, I just heard that you are not allowed to post links from other forums in here, so I edited it out!)
His root guru was Changchub Dorje, a terton. Lived til he was 135 or 152 years old. Age disputed due to different numbers for the year of departure. Attained rainbow body. (Teachers of Changchub Dorje: Adzom Drugpa, Nyala Pema Duddul (attained rainbow body), and the Bon master Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen (attained rainbow body)).

Other teachers of ChNN: Togden Ugyen Tenzin (attained rainbow body), Jamyang Khyentse Wangchuk, Ayu Khandro, Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro, Onto Khyenrab Chokyi Ozer, Derge Lama Kunga Palden, Negyab Rinpoche, Drugse Gyurmed Dorje, Bo Gongkar Rinpoche.


Two teachers of his teacher Changchub Dorje also attained rainbow body.

Anyone knows what's up with the uncertainty of Changchub Dorje's year of death?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyala_Rinpoche
Nyala Rinpoche Rigdzin Changchub Dorje (1826 – 1961/1978)
Last edited by ZOOM on Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ZOOM
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby ZOOM » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:40 pm

philji wrote:Hi Zoom. My wife and I are travelling from UK to Austria in a couple of weeks for the dzogchen seminar being given at Gomde by Chokling Rinpoche. Rinpoche is authorised to give the transmissions, his father was the renowned yogi Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche.... Wonderful opportunity.
http://www.gomde.at/eng/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thats awsome!
Thanks for the info and I hope you both will have a great time there and learn precious knowledge! :twothumbsup:

Andrew108
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby Andrew108 » Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:01 am

Can I ask you why it is you would like to achieve rainbow body?
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

ZOOM
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby ZOOM » Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:35 am

Andrew108 wrote:Can I ask you why it is you would like to achieve rainbow body?

Why does someone want to become a Buddha?
According to the view of Dzogchen, "going rainbow" is the result of complete enlightenment.

Andrew108
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby Andrew108 » Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:22 pm

There is another key concept in Dzogchen which is something like 'those who wish to achieve are the ones who will never achieve'. This actually takes precedence over the wish to attain buddhahood and go rainbow. Something to consider.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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lelopa
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby lelopa » Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:28 pm

it is a little difficult to give answers without knowing your background:
why do you ask especially for rainbow-body?
where did you hear about it?
do you have experiences with meditation?
other schools of buddhism?
or are you totally new to meditation,etc?
you say "... I am relatively new to the subject of Dzogchen ...."
you know something about 6 yogas - are you a buddhist?

if i would say f.e.: "i am a zen-buddhist, or a kagyupa,etc. since 7 years" - maybe i'll get one/two different answers
as if i'd say : "i am interested in buddhism since 2 weeks..."
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:42 pm

Andrew108 wrote:There is another key concept in Dzogchen which is something like 'those who wish to achieve are the ones who will never achieve'.


Oh really, in what Dzogchen teaching is this taught? Citation please.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

ZOOM
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby ZOOM » Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:55 pm

lelopa wrote:it is a little difficult to give answers without knowing your background:
why do you ask especially for rainbow-body?
where did you hear about it?
do you have experiences with meditation?
other schools of buddhism?
or are you totally new to meditation,etc?
you say "... I am relatively new to the subject of Dzogchen ...."
you know something about 6 yogas - are you a buddhist?

if i would say f.e.: "i am a zen-buddhist, or a kagyupa,etc. since 7 years" - maybe i'll get one/two different answers
as if i'd say : "i am interested in buddhism since 2 weeks..."


I am a result-oriented individual and the rainbow body attainment is the most impressive result of any system I've ever heard of.
I studied various buddhist and taoist systems and was mostly fixated to work with winds / chi.
The Dzogchen system seems to have a pretty different approach which is new to me, so I cannot transfer my experience with energy-oriented systems to it.
As I understand it so far, channels, winds and drops are not worked with at all in Dzogchen.
:reading:

Andrew108
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby Andrew108 » Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:There is another key concept in Dzogchen which is something like 'those who wish to achieve are the ones who will never achieve'.


Oh really, in what Dzogchen teaching is this taught? Citation please.


It's outlined in Kunjed Gyalpo, Mejung. Nubchen writes about it as does ChNN.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:21 pm

Andrew108 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:There is another key concept in Dzogchen which is something like 'those who wish to achieve are the ones who will never achieve'.


Oh really, in what Dzogchen teaching is this taught? Citation please.


It's outlined in Kunjed Gyalpo, Mejung. Nubchen writes about it as does ChNN.


Citation, Andrew.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

Andrew108
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby Andrew108 » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:Citation, Andrew.


In the Mejung Chapter 23. The Marvelous Primordial State: The Mejung Tantra.

"When one becomes expert in all views, all training collapses. Any form of training is not the [real] training. Not training in anything is the training of me, the wise one."

About this passage Nubchen Sangye Yeshe states:

"When explaining that contemplation is beyond training , [if one applies] concepts and practice to the view, there arises the concept of [the view as] definitely established, that is, one does not see that it is not to be applied [with the mind]. Therefore [the citation] explains that the training is beyond concepts and application."

And further to this:

"Those who desire enlightenment do not attain enlightenment and are far from the supreme enlightenment like the earth and sky [are far from one another]."

Nubchen Sangye Yeshe states:

"Holding a view connected to hope and fear is a deviation. Through such [an approach] they do not meet the true principle."

About this ChNN states:

"Those who desire to become totally realized will not obtain what they wish for. They are far from realization, as earth and sky are far apart from each other. This means that one must not remain in any kind of concept, even the concept of becoming realized."

From Kunjed Gyalpo:

"Within this (presence) there do not exist even words for the activities (of travelling to) some place (of enlightenment obtained) through forced discipline. When (followers of cause-oriented vehicles) use the PA (letters to point out the unborn state of ) A, they desire to produce (an enlightenment which is only) the bliss of illusion." Quatrain 34

Added to this in the Kunsal says:

"Spiritual levels and liberation stories are far from supreme enlightenment. Supreme enlightenment is the real condition which cannot be travelled. The desire to travel is very far from wisdom."

Then Longchenpa says in the Chöying Dzö:

"Because everything is primordially liberated in space, there is no need for anyone to now liberate anything with effort. Because it is senseless to apply effort (to liberate anything), do not, do not, do not struggle and practice. Do not view, do not view, do not view the phenomena of mind. Do not meditate, do not meditate, do not meditate the phenomena of mins=d. Do not analyse, do not analyse, do not analyse objects and mind. Do not realize, do not realize, do not realize the goal of hope and fear. Do not reject, do not reject, do not reject emotions and karma. Do not accept, do not accept, do not accept the real teaching. Do not bind, do not bind, do not bind your mind-stream."

Then KG Chapter 53

"My (teaching) is that all phenomena (are already) accomplished, beyond the desire (for some goal). Because (everything is already) accomplished as the essence (of equality), there is no desire (for the phenomena of samsara) and no desire (for the phenomena of nirvana)."

"Accomplishment is not spoken about by me, but is a word (spoken) by followers who desire to accomplish some goal (based upon) causes."

There are so many references to practicing without a goal that I can't post them all here.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Losal Samten
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby Losal Samten » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:21 pm

The Kunjed Gyalpo is a Semde text however and thus its praxis is trekchod which leads to the atomic body, not the rainbow body.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
Bhaiṣajyaguruvaiḍūryaprabharāja

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:37 pm

Andrew108 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Citation, Andrew.


In the Mejung Chapter 23. The Marvelous Primordial State: The Mejung Tantra.



And so you conclude from these citations that one ought not wish for freedom from suffering? That the entire Buddhist path is mere foolishness? That the wish to attain awakening (bodhicitta) should be given up, eschewed?
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

Lotus_Bitch
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby Lotus_Bitch » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:03 pm

ZOOM wrote:As I understand it so far, channels, winds and drops are not worked with at all in Dzogchen.
:reading:


FYI:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=218399#p218399

:namaste:
Many meditators know how to meditate,
But only a few know how to dismantle [mental clinging].
- Je Gyare

Andrew108
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby Andrew108 » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:36 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Citation, Andrew.


In the Mejung Chapter 23. The Marvelous Primordial State: The Mejung Tantra.



And so you conclude from these citations that one ought not wish for freedom from suffering? That the entire Buddhist path is mere foolishness? That the wish to attain awakening (bodhicitta) should be given up, eschewed?


Dzogchen attitude is quite unique. Very special. The idea of wanting to have rainbow body or wanting to achieve enlightenment doesn't fit.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

ZOOM
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby ZOOM » Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:10 pm

Lotus_Bitch wrote:
ZOOM wrote:As I understand it so far, channels, winds and drops are not worked with at all in Dzogchen.
:reading:


FYI:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=218399#p218399

:namaste:


I'm shocked!!!
For what reason should pranayama be important for Dzogchen practice? :jawdrop:
In his book “Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings”, Lopon Tenzin Namdak says that only attaining and keeping the Natural State of mind counts!
Isn't Lopon Tenzin Namdak one of the foremost authorities of Dzogchen in the world today?
So he should know!

ZOOM
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby ZOOM » Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:21 pm

Andrew108 wrote:Dzogchen attitude is quite unique. Very special. The idea of wanting to have rainbow body or wanting to achieve enlightenment doesn't fit.


What you are implying seems completely absurd to me.
For what reason in your opinion are all those people practicing Dzogchen who finally succeed in attaining rainbow body?


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