Dzogchen & rainbow body

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Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby ZOOM » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:23 pm

Hello dear friends,

I am relatively new to the subject of Dzogchen and I must admit that I didn't find many sources which describe clearly (at least to me) what exactly Dzogchen means and how you are supposed train to achieve the rainbow body.
Therefore I would like to discuss these subjects with you who have a better understanding of these subjects than me.

As far as my limited understanding goes, it seems to me that Dzogchen describes the primal state of mind which is re-achieved by reversing the outward stream of awareness back to its source.
"The mirror tries to reflect itself", like a short-circuit.
The perceiver tries to perceive itself, so all senses and energies of your inner being re-join with their source.
If this state is achieved and kept for a longer time (and is possibly more and more intensified),
then the mind develops a unique strength and ability to "burn through illusion" and get insight into the nature of all things it gets aware of.
If this primal strength and force of the mind is focused on the own physical body, then the mind dissolves the matter of the body back into its elements, which leads to the achievement of rainbow body.
So the "primal" mind does not only have the passive ability for insight,
but also has the active force to "dissolve" things or to transform them.

I would be happy if you would please correct my interpretations, if these are wrong and further my understanding. :smile:

Btw, what happens if you focus this "Dzogchen" mind at your subtle body?
Is in Dzogchen training trained at all with the channels, chakras, drops, winds etc. as in the Six Yogas Of Naropa?
Is Dzogchen not more or less similar to Zen?

ZOOM
ZOOM
 
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby ZOOM » Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:56 pm

Another thing I'd like to know:
All the monks you read about who achieved rainbow body, did they all achieve it with Dzogchen or do other ways like Tantra or the Six Yogas Of Naropa also lead to that attainment?

ZOOM
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby alpha » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:34 pm

ZOOM wrote:Hello dear friends,

I am relatively new to the subject of Dzogchen and I must admit that I didn't find many sources which describe clearly (at least to me) what exactly Dzogchen means and how you are supposed train to achieve the rainbow body.
Therefore I would like to discuss these subjects with you who have a better understanding of these subjects than me.

As far as my limited understanding goes, it seems to me that Dzogchen describes the primal state of mind which is re-achieved by reversing the outward stream of awareness back to its source.
"The mirror tries to reflect itself", like a short-circuit.
The perceiver tries to perceive itself, so all senses and energies of your inner being re-join with their source.
If this state is achieved and kept for a longer time (and is possibly more and more intensified),
then the mind develops a unique strength and ability to "burn through illusion" and get insight into the nature of all things it gets aware of.
If this primal strength and force of the mind is focused on the own physical body, then the mind dissolves the matter of the body back into its elements, which leads to the achievement of rainbow body.
So the "primal" mind does not only have the passive ability for insight,
but also has the active force to "dissolve" things or to transform them.

I would be happy if you would please correct my interpretations, if these are wrong and further my understanding. :smile:

Btw, what happens if you focus this "Dzogchen" mind at your subtle body?
Is in Dzogchen training trained at all with the channels, chakras, drops, winds etc. as in the Six Yogas Of Naropa?
Is Dzogchen not more or less similar to Zen?

ZOOM


Unfortunately you can't figure out dzogchen on your own.
AOM
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby ZOOM » Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:00 pm

alpha wrote:
ZOOM wrote:Hello dear friends,

I am relatively new to the subject of Dzogchen and I must admit that I didn't find many sources which describe clearly (at least to me) what exactly Dzogchen means and how you are supposed train to achieve the rainbow body.
Therefore I would like to discuss these subjects with you who have a better understanding of these subjects than me.

As far as my limited understanding goes, it seems to me that Dzogchen describes the primal state of mind which is re-achieved by reversing the outward stream of awareness back to its source.
"The mirror tries to reflect itself", like a short-circuit.
The perceiver tries to perceive itself, so all senses and energies of your inner being re-join with their source.
If this state is achieved and kept for a longer time (and is possibly more and more intensified),
then the mind develops a unique strength and ability to "burn through illusion" and get insight into the nature of all things it gets aware of.
If this primal strength and force of the mind is focused on the own physical body, then the mind dissolves the matter of the body back into its elements, which leads to the achievement of rainbow body.
So the "primal" mind does not only have the passive ability for insight,
but also has the active force to "dissolve" things or to transform them.

I would be happy if you would please correct my interpretations, if these are wrong and further my understanding. :smile:

Btw, what happens if you focus this "Dzogchen" mind at your subtle body?
Is in Dzogchen training trained at all with the channels, chakras, drops, winds etc. as in the Six Yogas Of Naropa?
Is Dzogchen not more or less similar to Zen?

ZOOM


Unfortunately you can't figure out dzogchen on your own.


Well, this comment doesn't answer any of my questions.
ZOOM
 
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby Crazywisdom » Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:26 pm

ZOOM wrote:Another thing I'd like to know:
All the monks you read about who achieved rainbow body, did they all achieve it with Dzogchen or do other ways like Tantra or the Six Yogas Of Naropa also lead to that attainment?

ZOOM


Yup. You got it. Now find a teacher.
Thank you for parking my Trojan Horse in your city.
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby ZOOM » Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:39 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
ZOOM wrote:Another thing I'd like to know:
All the monks you read about who achieved rainbow body, did they all achieve it with Dzogchen or do other ways like Tantra or the Six Yogas Of Naropa also lead to that attainment?

ZOOM


Yup. You got it. Now find a teacher.


My question above, which you believed to answer, could not be answered with a "Yup. You got it."/yes.
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby Crazywisdom » Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:56 pm

ZOOM wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
ZOOM wrote:Another thing I'd like to know:
All the monks you read about who achieved rainbow body, did they all achieve it with Dzogchen or do other ways like Tantra or the Six Yogas Of Naropa also lead to that attainment?

ZOOM


Yup. You got it. Now find a teacher.


My question above, which you believed to answer, could not be answered with a "Yup. You got it."/yes.


Both work
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby philji » Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:03 pm

Doesn't right speech ever feature in our answers????? Short, snappy and often sharp answers do nothing to help . If the questioner is asking a question and we think he would be better off approaching a teacher why not explain why, and what teachers may be available in his area instead of yup go find a teacher!!!!! :shrug:
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby Jikan » Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:08 pm

Hi ZOOM,

You're asking legitimate questions but not getting the kinds of answers you want. What's up with that?

I think it's because the kinds of questions you're asking can't really be addressed easily, if at all, over the interwebz. The short answer to your question, how do I accomplish Dzogchen and attain rainbow body, really is answerable this way: Find a competent teacher and do what he or she says. Really, that's it, but it's also a really tall order.

You're clearly interested in the teachings and the practice, so why not try to find yourself a teacher and get going? Life isn't getting any longer, and who knows what the future holds. Now's a good time to get started on your search. This board is a lot better at helping people find their way to capable teachers and organizations than it is with... well, most other things, actually.

I hope this helps.

I wish you all the best in your path.
Jikan
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby Crazywisdom » Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:12 pm

Sorry my eyesight is poor. I didn't see the disjunctive interrogatory. I only saw if Six Yogas of Naropa works.
Thank you for parking my Trojan Horse in your city.
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby ZOOM » Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:14 pm

philji wrote:Doesn't right speech ever feature in our answers????? Short, snappy and often sharp answers do nothing to help . If the questioner is asking a question and we think he would be better off approaching a teacher why not explain why, and what teachers may be available in his area instead of yup go find a teacher!!!!! :shrug:

Thanks, you were saying what I was thinking.
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby ZOOM » Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:15 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:Sorry my eyesight is poor. I didn't see the disjunctive interrogatory. I only saw if Six Yogas of Naropa works.

No problem. :namaste:
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby ZOOM » Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:19 pm

Jikan wrote:Hi ZOOM,

You're asking legitimate questions but not getting the kinds of answers you want. What's up with that?

I think it's because the kinds of questions you're asking can't really be addressed easily, if at all, over the interwebz. The short answer to your question, how do I accomplish Dzogchen and attain rainbow body, really is answerable this way: Find a competent teacher and do what he or she says. Really, that's it, but it's also a really tall order.

You're clearly interested in the teachings and the practice, so why not try to find yourself a teacher and get going? Life isn't getting any longer, and who knows what the future holds. Now's a good time to get started on your search. This board is a lot better at helping people find their way to capable teachers and organizations than it is with... well, most other things, actually.

I hope this helps.

I wish you all the best in your path.


I understand.
Thank you very much for the explanation.
I would be very happy if someone could point out to me a competent teacher of Dzogchen in Germany.
Preferably a teacher whose teacher attained rainbow body (which would be proof that the teacher is legitimate).
:)
Last edited by ZOOM on Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby Crazywisdom » Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:24 pm

ZOOM wrote:
Jikan wrote:Hi ZOOM,

You're asking legitimate questions but not getting the kinds of answers you want. What's up with that?

I think it's because the kinds of questions you're asking can't really be addressed easily, if at all, over the interwebz. The short answer to your question, how do I accomplish Dzogchen and attain rainbow body, really is answerable this way: Find a competent teacher and do what he or she says. Really, that's it, but it's also a really tall order.

You're clearly interested in the teachings and the practice, so why not try to find yourself a teacher and get going? Life isn't getting any longer, and who knows what the future holds. Now's a good time to get started on your search. This board is a lot better at helping people find their way to capable teachers and organizations than it is with... well, most other things, actually.

I hope this helps.

I wish you all the best in your path.


I understand.
Thank you very much for the explanation.
I would be very happy if someone could point out to me a legitimate teacher of Dzogchen in Germany.
Preferably a teacher whose teacher realized the rainbow body (which would be proof that the teacher is legitimate).
:)


Namkhai Norbu is international. Two teacher of his went rainbow.
Thank you for parking my Trojan Horse in your city.
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby ZOOM » Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:29 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
ZOOM wrote:
Jikan wrote:Hi ZOOM,

You're asking legitimate questions but not getting the kinds of answers you want. What's up with that?

I think it's because the kinds of questions you're asking can't really be addressed easily, if at all, over the interwebz. The short answer to your question, how do I accomplish Dzogchen and attain rainbow body, really is answerable this way: Find a competent teacher and do what he or she says. Really, that's it, but it's also a really tall order.

You're clearly interested in the teachings and the practice, so why not try to find yourself a teacher and get going? Life isn't getting any longer, and who knows what the future holds. Now's a good time to get started on your search. This board is a lot better at helping people find their way to capable teachers and organizations than it is with... well, most other things, actually.

I hope this helps.

I wish you all the best in your path.


I understand.
Thank you very much for the explanation.
I would be very happy if someone could point out to me a legitimate teacher of Dzogchen in Germany.
Preferably a teacher whose teacher realized the rainbow body (which would be proof that the teacher is legitimate).
:)


Namkhai Norbu is international. Two teacher of his went rainbow.


That's interesting, thank you very much!
Could you please tell me the names of these two teachers of him who attained rainbow body?
:smile:
ZOOM
 
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby Crazywisdom » Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:38 pm

Changchub Dorje, Togden Ugyen Tendzin
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby Crazywisdom » Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:39 pm

As a terton he is a direct disciple of guru Rinpoche.
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby ZOOM » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:10 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:As a terton he is a direct disciple of guru Rinpoche.

Thank you very much for the help!
Namkhai Norbu has international Dzogchen centers, including one in Germany.
That's at least something, even if he is not here for direct teaching.
I will contact them and ask them concerning Dzogchen teaching.

:namaste:
ZOOM
 
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby Mother's Lap » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:15 pm

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche also gives teachings very frequently via webcast.

http://melong.com/?page_id=329
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Re: Dzogchen & rainbow body

Postby ZOOM » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:24 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:Changchub Dorje, Togden Ugyen Tendzin


http://www.amazon.com/Rainbow-Body-Realization-Tibetan-Tendzin/dp/1583944915/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1405106160&sr=8-1&keywords=Rainbow+Body%3A+The+Life+and+Realization+of+a+Tibetan+Yogin%2C+Togden+Ugyen+Tendzin
Rainbow Body: The Life and Realization of a Tibetan Yogin, Togden Ugyen Tendzin, presents the remarkable life story of Togden Ugyen Tendzin (1888–1962), a Tibetan yogin who in death achieved the “rainbow body,” the release of the physical body in the essence of the five elements and one of the highest spiritual attainments of Dzogchen, recognized as the supreme level of Tibetan Buddhism. His nephew, Chögyal Namkhai Norbu, one of the greatest living masters of Dzogchen, composed the book from his own recollections of his uncle as well as direct quotes from talks with the great yogin himself and his disciple Sala Karma Samten. The book traces the yogin’s childhood struggles, the circumstances that led him to his teacher, the eminent Adzom Drugpa, and his difficult path to self-realization. Finally, Chögyal Namkhai Norbu relates the story of Ugyen Tendzin’s death during imprisonment by the Chinese, when witnesses discovered that though his sheepskin robe still sat upright, his body was gone—a testament to its having dissolved into the rainbow body.


Trailer of "My Reincarnation" (a movie about him & his son)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfJtcRxw3eo

Do I understand it right that his son is supposed to be the reincarnation of his uncle Togden Ugyen Tendzin, who realized rainbow body?
So how is it supposed to be possible that his son doesn't remember that???
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