Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book

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Re: Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book

Postby Adi » Wed May 07, 2014 8:11 pm

theanarchist wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:They seem to be very nice people and have done a lot of practice. Perhaps it helps to keep an open mind.



Doesn't matter. These practices can't be done without the direct teachings and transmission of a qualified guru who is holding the lineage and has realization in the practice. Publishing texts on it in an openly available book is a sign that they don't know what they are talking about.


I'm not sure what they're selling but I don't think I'll be buying it. There are much better books and teachers out there.

On their website they manage to blend (in just one of many squishy paragraphs) a new-age dualist view with eternalism, conspiracy theories, perennialism, patriarchal oppression and top it off with a repeating picture of Shiva completed by a Guy Fawkes mask superimposed over the face.

Divine treason is to accept our spiritual worthiness. We have the same intrinsic right to direct experience of spiritual growth as we have to economic, social, and environmental justice. These issues are not separate. The inequalities are maintained by the same mythologies. The rulers whether heads of state, bankers, priests, lamas, ceo’s, or the laws of reason, science and technology, are not divine. They have merely usurped this power and claimed it for their own. The treason is divine, to accept that the human heart has a natural capacity to blend with the Source, the All by any name, and that we can all return home to a heart blended with the fabric of being and support each other in that returning. The flawed being that dominator societies call human nature is not our true face. It is the true face of the dominators mentality with all the cruelty that entails. We look in their mirrors and see what they want us to see. Look deeper into your true heart and see what we really are and can be, one with the fabric of being, naturally generous and caring in kinship with all life.
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Re: Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed May 07, 2014 8:18 pm

I think we all know what to do:

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Re: Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book

Postby theanarchist » Wed May 07, 2014 8:23 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:"Heart Drops of Dharmakāya" pays homage to the guru, the lineage, stresses the vital importance of direct introduction from a qualified teacher and cites quite a few preliminaries which are to be practiced prior to even reading about the man ngag sde practices, let alone practicing them (which Loppön is clear in saying transmission is required).

The Old's are not doing any of that, and in fact it sounds as if they have turned their backs on their teacher (who informed them they did not complete the path they claim to have completed) and lineage completely. It's bad news.




So another Tibetan buddhism drop out case founding their own wannabe vajrayana group/cult/money machine?
Last edited by theanarchist on Wed May 07, 2014 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book

Postby Adi » Wed May 07, 2014 8:24 pm

Yes, watching The Simpsons is said to be a wise use of one's time. ;)
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Re: Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book

Postby alpha » Wed May 07, 2014 8:30 pm

One would think that after so many years of buddhism and dzogchen one would have past the dangers of erring sooooooo badly .
Contrary to popular belief , where one after a certain level develops enough wisdom and understanding to keep them from falling again into erroneous views, it seems that nobody is safe.
Unless the Olds never developed enough beyond the very basic first vission....
Just saying. ...
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Re: Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed May 07, 2014 8:39 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
theanarchist wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:They seem to be very nice people and have done a lot of practice. Perhaps it helps to keep an open mind.
Doesn't matter. These practices can't be done without the direct teachings and transmission of a qualified guru who is holding the lineage and has realization in the practice. Publishing texts on it in an openly available book is a sign that they don't know what they are talking about.

I believe they learned togal from Lama Drimed Norbu, one of Chagdud Tulku's dzogchen lineage holders.

OK, this is what I was thinking of:
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=3351&p=57878l#p57878
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Re: Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book

Postby alpha » Wed May 07, 2014 8:45 pm

I find it quite extraordinary that Lama Drimed has the realisation to guide people through the four vissio s.
When did he do his decades of thogal retreat?
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Re: Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed May 07, 2014 9:21 pm

alpha wrote:I find it quite extraordinary that Lama Drimed has the realisation to guide people through the four vissio s.
When did he do his decades of thogal retreat?

I don't know about that. If you look at the translator's note to the revised edition of "Buddhahood Without Meditation" you can read:
This revised edition of Buddhahood Without Meditation, though having evolved over only four years, is the result of significant changes that reflect the blessings of Lama Padma Drimed Norbu and his transmission of this text at his annual Dzogchhen retreats. Because Lama Drimed wished to make the terminology and meaning clearer to his Western students, we began a review of the text in 1998. Spurred by his insightful inquiries and in consultation with him, we continued to refine its language over the next three years, resolving questions with His Eminence Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche.

So it appears that he was indeed teaching Dzogchen with Chagdud Tulku's approval.
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Re: Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed May 07, 2014 9:33 pm

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Re: Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book

Postby theanarchist » Wed May 07, 2014 10:29 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:BTW, it looks like Lama Drimed is teaching at Esalen in September:
http://www.esalen.org/workshop/week-september-14-21/lotus-borne-perception-awareness-teachings-tibetan-buddhism-and



At a minimum of 900 dollars for one :thinking: week
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Re: Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 07, 2014 10:39 pm

theanarchist wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:BTW, it looks like Lama Drimed is teaching at Esalen in September:
http://www.esalen.org/workshop/week-september-14-21/lotus-borne-perception-awareness-teachings-tibetan-buddhism-and



At a minimum of 900 dollars for one :thinking: week



$900.00 – $4,975.00 (based on accommodation type)
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed May 07, 2014 10:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:$900.00 – $4,975.00 (based on accommodation type)

5k for a week? There better be some SERIOUS amenities, that's all I can say.
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Re: Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book

Postby supermaxv » Wed May 07, 2014 11:05 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:$900.00 – $4,975.00 (based on accommodation type)

5k for a week? There better be some SERIOUS amenities, that's all I can say.


It looks like you get your own house perched on the cliff overlooking the Pacific Ocean.
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Re: Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book

Postby smcj » Wed May 07, 2014 11:14 pm

supermaxv wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:$900.00 – $4,975.00 (based on accommodation type)

5k for a week? There better be some SERIOUS amenities, that's all I can say.


It looks like you get your own house perched on the cliff overlooking the Pacific Ocean.

Plus their famous natural spring hot tubs on the cliff above the sea. They are beautiful at night.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 08, 2014 2:24 am

smcj wrote:Plus their famous natural spring hot tubs on the cliff above the sea. They are beautiful at night.


Clothing optional.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book

Postby Adamantine » Thu May 08, 2014 2:35 am

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:Plus their famous natural spring hot tubs on the cliff above the sea. They are beautiful at night.


Clothing optional.


And escorts? . . . WHoops, I meant consorts? :emb:
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book

Postby Adi » Thu May 08, 2014 2:56 am

Lama Drimed's involvement in The Continuum Movement (what he's teaching at Esalen) is certainly not without raised eyebrows. Esalen has long been home to many east-west meetings, some quite complementary, others resembling head-on collisions.

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Re: Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book

Postby smcj » Thu May 08, 2014 4:40 am

Adamantine wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:Plus their famous natural spring hot tubs on the cliff above the sea. They are beautiful at night.


Clothing optional.


And escorts? . . . WHoops, I meant consorts? :emb:

It's co-ed. And no, wearing swim trunks is not an option that I've ever seen there. I know this but not because I'm not a rich guy. They used to let the locals in for a fee from like midnight until 6a. Maybe they still do.
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A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book

Postby Andrew108 » Thu May 08, 2014 8:05 pm

They have been practicing in semi-isolated retreat for 9 years. A large part of that time they say was spent practicing Thögal. They should be applauded for their efforts. They may have some useful insights. To judge if they have realization or not is actually very easy. Contact them and see if they are conditioned. If they do not display any behaviour that is conditioned by kleshas then one can assume that the practice has worked.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book

Postby theanarchist » Thu May 08, 2014 10:46 pm

Andrew108 wrote: If they do not display any behaviour that is conditioned by kleshas then one can assume that the practice has worked.


For a person without direct realisation it's fairly hard to judge another persons realisation. Of course certain behaviours make it fairly unlikely someone has any realisations, like for example any narcissistic behaviours, but there are reports that there were realized dzogchen practitioners who are so unassuming in their behaviour that you would never notice that they are actually realized practitioners.

That someone is sitting around in retreat for a few years doesn't impress me particularly. Because the person might have indeed gained spiritual realisations. But it can equally be that they go on a subtle, but huge ego trip. It's the quality of the practice that counts, not the quantity. And someone who mixes up Hindu statues, new age bla bla with thogyal theory on their website is pretty suspicious to me.

Sounds all pretty fabricated to me (just got home from a webcast teaching with Khandro Rinpoche and she spoke about this kind of artificial complications and other sorts of hangups on the spiritual path)
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