Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby Seishin » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:55 am

Thank you :)

Many Buddhists aren't religious, but our path is threefold;
Dhyana - meditation (practice)
Sila - morality/ethics (practice)
Prajna - wisdom (knowledge)

If you've had an experience and want validation from a Buddhist perspective, we will naturally refer to these three aspects. These aspects are not separate and are all as important as the other, and they are important.
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby Sönam » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:09 pm

garudha wrote:
Sönam wrote:As luminescent Intrinsic Awa...




The sickness is everywhere... Even in beautiful words.


Because you choose to introduce your questionning in the dzogchen forum, you may expect a dzogchen answer ... so you have it. Wether you like it or not ... The Great Perfection is self-liberation, and it starts with DI, then recognizing your nature. Therefore, if you are ready, you encounter à dzogchen master ... the rest is only conceptual blabla ego trip.
Sorry for that ...

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby garudha » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:41 pm

Sönam wrote:
garudha wrote:
Sönam wrote:As luminescent Intrinsic Awa...




The sickness is everywhere... Even in beautiful words.


Because you choose to introduce your questionning in the dzogchen forum, you may expect a dzogchen answer ... so you have it. Wether you like it or not ... The Great Perfection is self-liberation, and it starts with DI, then recognizing your nature. Therefore, if you are ready, you encounter à dzogchen master ... the rest is only conceptual blabla ego trip.
Sorry for that ...

Sönam


That's okay. I don't take offence. What you write is right for you. How could it otherwise be ?
Love's compassion for ignorance is infinite. // "Moreover, Maitreya, apprehending objects are also apprehended objects." -The Samdhinirmocana Sutra.
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby Sönam » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:51 pm

recognizing our nature is elimination of doubt, that's precisely why a master is needed ... and not only for me. Why should we question afterwards?

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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby garudha » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:58 pm

Having tasted the sweetness of the fruit, in time, one's mouth becomes bitter. Like a baby becomes a child and learns the ways of the world, such is life.
Love's compassion for ignorance is infinite. // "Moreover, Maitreya, apprehending objects are also apprehended objects." -The Samdhinirmocana Sutra.
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby garudha » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:08 pm

Sönam wrote:recognizing our nature is elimination of doubt
Sönam


Perfect.
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby philji » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:30 pm

Garuda.. Your experience was wonderful. It came and it passed now is the opportunity to stabilize the recognition.. For that a teacher is necessary.
It seems that you have attachment and aversion to replies given here..... Where are these experiences now?
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby garudha » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:10 pm

philji wrote:Garuda.. Your experience was wonderful. It came and it passed now is the opportunity to stabilize the recognition.. For that a teacher is necessary.
It seems that you have attachment and aversion to replies given here..... Where are these experiences now?


There's been many replies but only one reply has been in direct response to the questions I asked in my OP.

I can see where you're coming from, and I am exploring the teaching of Buddihsm, but I did start this thread to ask some "scienctific" questions and not, I'm sorry, discuss ethics, how to proceed on any given path to any given realisation, ask what Dzogchen is or how to realise the fruits of the its practice.

If you want to turn this thread into "let's discuss what the fruits actually are", or, "What's the best way to realise the fruits of Dzogchen?" or "you must hook with a teacher and start practising a religion" please stop and join another thread. There are many other threads to discuss these things.

Please refrain going off topic and from turning this thread into something it's not meant to be!.. No matter how truthful the teaching of Buddhism are.

Thanks.
Love's compassion for ignorance is infinite. // "Moreover, Maitreya, apprehending objects are also apprehended objects." -The Samdhinirmocana Sutra.
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby Seishin » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:19 pm

I have to say your questions weren't scientific. And, to be blunt again, you're asking Buddhists, on a Buddhist forum, you are going to get "Buddhist" answers.
The answers have been on topic, just not the answers you're looking for.

Gassho,
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby philji » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:25 pm

The questions in question
1. The infinite oneness that I remember as being far more real than ordinary existence; How can we know that this isn't just the true nature of our individual minds, and not a shared conciousness that contains all conceptions?

2. At the time of entry; after my crown chakra opened, it felt like I was shot as "straight as a steel bolt" from the top of my head into space. My question is this... (a) Did I actually go anywhere or was just a trick sensation ? (b) If I left my body, did my body actually exist whilst "I wasn't but oneness was" ?

3. How common is it to experience this in one's lifetime, generally ?

4. Let's say that I start to meditate, and knowing the route, I then enter this state again before long. Are there any dangers? -For example; might I manifest multiple bodies by mistake, or re-enter the wrong body, or even get re-birthed at the point of conception thus leaving my regular body for dust ?

So you want somebody to answer the questions..who better than a teacher...or you may as well just go down the local bar and ask someone there.
........a wise man once said to me...." If you don't want the answer...don't ask the question" :spy:
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby Sönam » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:53 pm

This thread has nothing to do in the dzogchen forum ... and now I bow out!

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:39 pm

Someone posts something like this once or twice a month about achieving the rainbow body, coming to some realized state, what have you.

Either many people who think they are realized are mistaken (that's certainly hinted at in scriptures), or there are an unprecedented number of people gaining spontaneously realization with little or not effort, then posting about it on Dharmawheel.

Seriously, give up the grand quests..having a day to day diminishing of one's pain, being able to consciously lessen others pain, seeing the world through eyes that are less covered by our neuroses and preoccupations - all that is IMO a MUCH bigger deal then some theoretical spiritual attainment or flights of fancy. Just the teachings can do that, no big attainments required. All that other stuff is a means to an ends, focusing on it is missing the forest for the trees.

In other words, yes...seek out a teacher!
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby conebeckham » Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:43 pm

Not really Dzogchen questions, but here are some responses:

1. If you have an Idea of individual mind, that is not the state of Dzogchen. If you have the idea of universal, or shared, consciousness, that is not state of Dzogchen.

2. Crown chakra and anything "shooting" out--one's mind, awareness, or whatnot, is not Dzogchen. It may be Phowa, or it may not.

3. There are an infinite number of experiences, but they are merely experiences, even if they are Dzogchen. You need a Dzogchen master to evaluate your experiences. No one can do this on the internet.

4. The only "danger" is in deluding oneself, if one tries to provoke such experiences as you claim, without a qualified teacher. Ego can get bigger, while thinking it has transcended.....
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby anjali » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:44 pm

garudha wrote:about 15 years ago, without any prior meditation practice (I didn't even know about Buddha), I had the experience of what I've since learned is called "the great perfection".


Garudha,

First, welcome to Dharmawheel. May your visit here be beneficial.

People do have experiences such as you describe. People can have all kinds of amazing experiences. Obviously, your experience of 15 years ago has had a powerful impact on you. That it has compelled you onto a journey of deeper understanding is a good thing. I wish you well in your journey.

I would like to ask you a question. How has having the experience changed you as a person?
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby garudha » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:05 pm

anjali wrote:
garudha wrote:about 15 years ago, without any prior meditation practice (I didn't even know about Buddha), I had the experience of what I've since learned is called "the great perfection".


Garudha,

First, welcome to Dharmawheel. May your visit here be beneficial.

People do have experiences such as you describe. People can have all kinds of amazing experiences. Obviously, your experience of 15 years ago has had a powerful impact on you. That it has compelled you onto a journey of deeper understanding is a good thing. I wish you well in your journey.

I would like to ask you a question. How has having the experience changed you as a person?


I was totally freaked out about everything before but afterwards I was transformed and had total faith in pure love and was able to live a relatively normal life. It didn't make me into a perfect buddha type person. I wasn't a bad person before and I'm not a bad person now. Still I meet people who are kinder than myself all the time. I'm nothing special.
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby Seishin » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:12 pm

It sounds more like a kensho experience rather than "great perfection".
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby garudha » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:19 pm

conebeckham wrote:Not really Dzogchen questions, but here are some responses:

1. If you have an Idea of individual mind, that is not the state of Dzogchen. If you have the idea of universal, or shared, consciousness, that is not state of Dzogchen.

I think you're taking the words I'm using too literally. I'm sorry that I'm not trained in using the correct words. Maybe my view of how things are is totally different to your own anyway. Really, words can't describe such matters anyway.
conebeckham wrote:2. Crown chakra and anything "shooting" out--one's mind, awareness, or whatnot, is not Dzogchen. It may be Phowa, or it may not.

Thanks for that term. I will check it out. You say "is not Dzogchen" but I think it's possible that a verity of events could happen in a very short period of time but still eventually lead to the absolute. Like I said to another member in this thread; Books are able only able to be written from experience and not the other way around.
conebeckham wrote:3. There are an infinite number of experiences, but they are merely experiences, even if they are Dzogchen. You need a Dzogchen master to evaluate your experiences. No one can do this on the internet.

Actually, I didn't come here to have my experiences evaluated. Sorry. The thing is that I have no idea how common these experiences are. For all I know everyone gets there after 30 mins of meditation. I've never meditated for more than 5 mins, myself. i get the impression that Dzogchen is not common. Certainly I don't need to see Dzogchen master as much as a lay person doesn't need to see a sexual therapist to evaluate their orgasm. Thankfully the great perfection is wonderfully articulated in many texts. I have discovered these texts, 15 yrs after my experience, as well as eastern spiritually in general and as far as I can tell; to experience Oneness which is infinite where the seer is un-conceived and not seperate from One is the central theme of Dzogchen.
conebeckham wrote:4. The only "danger" is in deluding oneself, if one tries to provoke such experiences as you claim, without a qualified teacher. Ego can get bigger, while thinking it has transcended.....

My ego is not a problem. I don't concern myself with such matters. If my ego is strong then good > may I be a strong person to help others. Thanks.
Last edited by garudha on Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:58 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby garudha » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:21 pm

Seishin wrote:It sounds more like a kensho experience rather than "great perfection".


Thanks I will check this out too.
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:36 pm

People with strong egos are (from a Buddhist perspective) not able to help much of anyone, including themselves..that is sort of the point. Other philosophies may differ on that point, but Buddhist teachings generally are pretty consistent on it.

Basically, what you are describing is a subjective experience, no one here can tell you the significance of it. However, when you have a universal chorus of people telling you to find a teacher, and to not put so much stock in subjective experiences..it's probably worth listening to.

Far as "types" of experiences, I am sure it varies a lot, but i'd wager plenty of people have had similar experiences, and thought they were more significant than they were, only to find later on they were back to boring, drab reality. That's the fleeting nature of experience. All kinds of things can happen in mediation, waves of bliss, immense sorrow, all kinds of visuals and feelings, and perceptions. Most Buddhist teachers recommend not attaching too much relevance to them.


Also, in what way are these experiences connected to Dzogchen? I'm no Dzogchen expert but none of what you are describing is like Dzogchen that I have read of, there is some passing similarity to various Phowa practices I guess, but you could just as easily say they were experiences from other non-Buddhist systems as well.
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby anjali » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:18 pm

garudha wrote:
anjali wrote:I would like to ask you a question. How has having the experience changed you as a person?

I was totally freaked out about everything before but afterwards I was transformed and had total faith in pure love and was able to live a relatively normal life. It didn't make me into a perfect buddha type person. I wasn't a bad person before and I'm not a bad person now. Still I meet people who are kinder than myself all the time. I'm nothing special.


Has the transformation stayed with you? Did it fade with time? How did your faith in pure love manifest? After your experience, did you feel more compassion for people; were you able to "see into" others' suffering? Did you experience any heightened sense of devotion and/or gratitude?
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