Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

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Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby garudha » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:33 pm

about 15 years ago, without any prior meditation practice (I didn't even know about Buddha), I had the experience of what I've since learned is called "the great perfection".

As I haven't met any Buddhists and have never been to any meditation groups I have now joined this forum to get insight into my my main experience and several other different experiences that have occurred in my life.

I'm likely to ask questions that seem incredibly newbie, but, some of them might be quite challenging to even the well practised meditationer.

May I ask, that if you feel qualified to answer my questions, you directly state that you have experienced the great perfection or send me a pm stating the same, thanks.

Here are the questions that puzzle me:

1. The infinite oneness that I remember as being far more real than ordinary existence; How can we know that this isn't just the true nature of our individual minds, and not a shared conciousness that contains all conceptions?

2. At the time of entry; after my crown chakra opened, it felt like I was shot as "straight as a steel bolt" from the top of my head into space. My question is this... (a) Did I actually go anywhere or was just a trick sensation ? (b) If I left my body, did my body actually exist whilst "I wasn't but oneness was" ?

3. How common is it to experience this in one's lifetime, generally ?

4. Let's say that I start to meditate, and knowing the route, I then enter this state again before long. Are there any dangers? -For example; might I manifest multiple bodies by mistake, or re-enter the wrong body, or even get re-birthed at the point of conception thus leaving my regular body for dust ?

A million thanks for reading my rambling post and trying to help me understand this stuff(?)
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby wisdom » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:07 pm

garudha wrote:1. The infinite oneness that I remember as being far more real than ordinary existence; How can we know that this isn't just the true nature of our individual minds, and not a shared conciousness that contains all conceptions?


The Great Perfection is non-dual. Its a subtle distinction between that and infinite oneness, yet its worth noting that understanding the specific view of Dzogchen is absolutely integral to success in its practice.

The true nature of our own mind, when its realized, is seen directly to be the same as the true nature of the mind of all beings and to be connected to an even broader realm of the pure changeless Dharmadhatu. This "seeing" is only to be understood directly when abiding in the true nature of the mind and cannot otherwise be known. Dzogchen is always entirely beyond conceptualization and all explanations will fall short.

garudha wrote:2. At the time of entry; after my crown chakra opened, it felt like I was shot as "straight as a steel bolt" from the top of my head into space. My question is this... (a) Did I actually go anywhere or was just a trick sensation ? (b) If I left my body, did my body actually exist whilst "I wasn't but oneness was" ?


This doesnt sound like Rigpa of Dzogchen. One does not "Go anywhere" nor does one leave the body. However this experience still has much value spiritually, it is just not Dzogchen realization nor even perception of the true nature of mind.

garudha wrote:3. How common is it to experience this in one's lifetime, generally ?


Its rare to experience oneness, as Shiva might. Its rarer to hear of Dzogchen, rarer still to encounter a Dzogchen Yogi who can give you direct introduction, and rarest of all to be able to put the teachings into practice and realize them.

garudha wrote:4. Let's say that I start to meditate, and knowing the route, I then enter this state again before long. Are there any dangers? -For example; might I manifest multiple bodies by mistake, or re-enter the wrong body, or even get re-birthed at the point of conception thus leaving my regular body for dust ?


Well to begin with if you do this meditation thinking its Dzogchen you will have immediately strayed from the Dzogchen path before you had a fair, fighting chance to begin it. First thing is to get direct introduction, understand Dzogchen view, and remain open minded and non-attached to your experiences. The danger is generating karma in the formless realms, which will just reincarnate you there or in the abode of the Gods. It will not lead to the supreme liberation of Dzogchen.

garudha wrote:A million thanks for reading my rambling post and trying to help me understand this stuff(?)


I hope you dont take offense, but what you describe doesnt sound like Dzogchen. To begin with its said that you need a teacher to give you direct introduction. Even if we discard that, the description of your experience doesnt indicate having realized Rigpa, which is what Dzogchen is about. On the other hand I rejoice that you've found these teachings and there is nothing wrong with experiences. Ive had many such experiences as well, and had to let them go as anything of much importance in order to really practice Dzogchen. They helped me find Dzogchen, that was enough for me.
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby garudha » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:45 pm

Dzogchen perfectly describes, without any doubt in my mind, what I spontaneously experienced without any formal introduction.

To be honest I'm not looking for a description of Dzogchen or a rehash of what can be read in a book.

I can read those books myself but they don't address someone in my own situation who has become experienced without even any intention of even having an experience in the first place!
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby garudha » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:58 pm

wisdom wrote:The danger is generating karma in the formless realms, which will just reincarnate you there or in the abode of the Gods. It will not lead to the supreme liberation of Dzogchen.


Yeah this is what I'm worried about. When one meditates; one presumes they will end up back in their own body at the end of practice, at least!

Can you recommend any books or websites that would serve as a manual for not getting accidentally reincarnated ?

I've already been re-born once, into the same body, and would prefer to not and end up as a pot plant or something similar next-time!
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby garudha » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:29 pm

wisdom wrote:
garudha wrote:
garudha wrote:2. At the time of entry; after my crown chakra opened, it felt like I was shot as "straight as a steel bolt" from the top of my head into space. My question is this... (a) Did I actually go anywhere or was just a trick sensation ? (b) If I left my body, did my body actually exist whilst "I wasn't but oneness was" ?


This doesnt sound like Rigpa of Dzogchen. One does not "Go anywhere" nor does one leave the body. However this experience still has much value spiritually, it is just not Dzogchen realization nor even perception of the true nature of mind.


Ok , thanks for telling that I actually went nowhere!

You know I wasn't describing the experience of Dzogchen. What I'm describing is the feeling of initial events leading up to the ultimate dwelling. Keep in mind that this experience might be different to you own. I had never mediated and was not meditating at the time of the experience.

It might be of interest to anyone reading, that these were the sequence of events for myself; someone with no prior training or even knowledge about what to expect:

I must stress that I had no intention for anything like this to happen. It happened by accident. Something else was the trigger and I don't want to name the specific trigger as it might create expectation for someone else (thus blocking the experience for them with that same trigger).

1. All chakras spontaneously open and flight of Garuda commences (1/100 second).
2. Try to put mental images onto the experience, realise that this is mental projection and give up to the intensity of the journey (1 second)
3. Exists solely on an emotional level and recall all past life events with the ability to know all of your life events with the feeling of other people's hearts (<1 second)
4. Deconstruction of all negative emotion and complete understanding of one's life (<2 seconds)
5. Awareness of pure bliss, of infinity, of eternity, of pure love, of oneness (time cannot be determined)
6. As very first conception arises, at this event, spontaneously ejected from this state.
7. Finally back in mortal reality. Have feeling that you've been re-born within a single lifetime.

Sorry Wisdom; you're very quick to judge and make remarks about what was and still is a life changing spiritual experience for someone... It actually saved my life !
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:57 am

Garudha, you should seek a qualified teacher if you are interested in Dzogchen. Many experiences can come on spontaneously for people depending on their karmic circumstances. Investigating those experiences is all well and good but coming to a personal conclusion that what you experienced was rigpa, or any other species of insight, is pure conjecture. This is the type of thing that needs to be addressed by a teacher. Dzogchen cannot be learned from books, it requires a living transmission. If you have indeed already encountered such insight then it will become clear through following the intimate instructions of a qualified guru. Otherwise you run the risk of chasing fantasies, and I would hope you value your precious time enough to avoid wasting it. If you truly have a natural inclination for the teachings then find a teacher so you can focus that in a productive way.
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby Sönam » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:30 am

As luminescent Intrinsic Awareness has no extremes and center,
There is no duality of defilements and antidotes.
So, things to be rejected, antidotes, detachment, attainment, hope and doubt, are liberated in their natural state.
People who do not know how to distinguish jewels from lamps
Think that the lamplight is the light of a jewel.
If one does not distinguish the absorption and experiences of self-liberation,
Then he will be bound by the attachment to liberation-upon-arising itself.
If one does not distinguish between expereiences and realization,
He will be deluded by holding on to the experiences as realization.
After realization there are at all times no changes of good and bad.
BY gaining experience of that, the virtuous experiences arise.
...

- Longchen Rabjam - Naturally Liberated Mind, the Great Perfection -
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby garudha » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:38 am

There's a sickness that exists within Buddhism.

It is the constant attempt to describe that which cannot be described.

I can't read any book, or even get any sensible reply on any internet forum, without encountering this sickness... I'm sick of it already!
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby garudha » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:45 am

Sönam wrote:As luminescent Intrinsic Awa...




The sickness is everywhere... Even in beautiful words.
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby garudha » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:54 am

The fool is me !

I see the impurity that exists (sickness), indeed I become that sickness, when we or I try to talk about the most profound purity.
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby garudha » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:58 am

Edit: Sorry this post was deleted.
Last edited by garudha on Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby jikai » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:10 am

@ Garuda,

You have asked for help and it has been given. you don't have to accept the advice. Nevertheless, referring to everyone here as 'sick' and referring to Buddhism as having a sickness is uncalled for. That aside, personal attacks are not ok re the forums terms of service.
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby garudha » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:13 am

Yes, jikai, you're right. I went too far.

I've edited some of my previous posts.

Still; I won't retract the concept of sickness as I think it's essentially true. To reiterate; In words we can never really express the pureness.
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby jikai » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:25 am

You suggest the sickness is a continual attempt to describe that which cannot be described. You are asking that forum users answer your questions/ advise. Is this not akin to asking that that somebody point out the moon to you, and then getting angry at the pointer and the pointing finger? Please understand I'm not looking for an argument, just trying to help. :-)
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby garudha » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:30 am

jikai wrote:You suggest the sickness is a continual attempt to describe that which cannot be described. You are asking that forum users answer your questions/ advise. Is this not akin to asking that that somebody point out the moon to you, and then getting angry at the pointer and the pointing finger? Please understand I'm not looking for an argument, just trying to help. :-)
Gassho,
Jikai .


Yes, I think I understand what you mean. Using your terms I must point out that never wanted the moon pointing out. I just wanted to ask some questions about it's orbital rotation.

Perhaps there a deeper significance in what you write, but I can't see right now? I do appreciate your post and will refer back to it.
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby jikai » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:51 am

I think a couple of things might be happening here. As far as I understand(I may be wrong) the thread so far: With your indulgence I'll continue with the lunar analogy. It seems that you began the thread by saying 'I saw something in the sky. This turned out to be the moon. And the Moon is X.'

Then people responded by suggesting that you 'check with an Astronomer first as it might not be the Moon you were looking at.'

I think that perhaps you might feel like this is a 'de-valuing' of what was for you a profound experience. To the contrary you might have been looking at Jupiter- and that is still viewing the universe (i.e can still be a valuable experience on the path).

In other words I think that this might be a case of 'talking past' one another.
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby garudha » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:00 am

wisdom wrote:
garudha wrote:1. The infinite oneness that I remember as being far more real than ordinary existence; How can we know that this isn't just the true nature of our individual minds, and not a shared conciousness that contains all conceptions?


The Great Perfection is non-dual. Its a subtle distinction between that and infinite oneness, yet its worth noting that understanding the specific view of Dzogchen is absolutely integral to success in its practice.

The true nature of our own mind, when its realized, is seen directly to be the same as the true nature of the mind of all beings and to be connected to an even broader realm of the pure changeless Dharmadhatu. This "seeing" is only to be understood directly when abiding in the true nature of the mind and cannot otherwise be known. Dzogchen is always entirely beyond conceptualization and all explanations will fall short.


I would like to raise two things here. The first relates to your option of the matter of facts. The second relates to the teaching of Dzogchen and challenges the interpretation of the fruit.

1. You say "understanding the specific view of Dzogchen is absolutely integral to success in its practice". This might be true for people who are practising Dzogchen , but, I was a bit dazed to read it as a reply to my initial post. Please note that my experience is, of the fruit, without having any prior knowledge that the fruit even existed. If this confuses you?.. May I suggest that it would be more accurate to say that books or teachings originate from spiritual experiences and not the other way round.

2. My second point is actually questioning the interpretation of the fruit. Now bear in mind that my experience was 15yrs back and I've been in Samsara for all those years. As I remember it,.. After the experience/fruit, I knew that this reality was an unborn conception of the absolute purity. However; Looking back at it now, I think it reasonable to ask "How can we know that the absolute purity is not just our own individual mind?". Yes! I know the obvious answer "all our minds exist unborn, in the absolute purity, and the absolute purity is absolute". But to say this so easily without considering the question properly would be folly. If you give the obvious answer as a fully qualified reply; then fair enough, but still the questioning of the interpretation of the fruit is a valid question, is it not ?

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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby Seishin » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:20 am

Hi Garudha, there a couple of things that worry me here. 1; you say you have no knowledge of Buddhism and never met a Buddhist, yet you say Buddhism is sick. 2; you say you've experienced the "great perfection" yet you easily get angry and resort to personal attacks. The people who have posted so far are only trying to help.

I would also like to point out (as did Jikai) that we have rules on this forum. Please take time to read them before posting. viewtopic.php?f=109&t=12768&view=unread#unread

Gassho,
Seishin
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby garudha » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:26 am

jikai wrote:I think a couple of things might be happening here. As far as I understand(I may be wrong) the thread so far: With your indulgence I'll continue with the lunar analogy. It seems that you began the thread by saying 'I saw something in the sky. This turned out to be the moon. And the Moon is X.'

Then people responded by suggesting that you 'check with an Astronomer first as it might not be the Moon you were looking at.'

I think that perhaps you might feel like this is a 'de-valuing' of what was for you a profound experience. To the contrary you might have been looking at Jupiter- and that is still viewing the universe (i.e can still be a valuable experience on the path).

In other words I think that this might be a case of 'talking past' one another.
Gassho,
Jikai.


You've read what other people are writing. You see how they are thinking and where they're coming from and how they might be mistaken. You have a balanced mind and some skills to communicate which I myself lack. Thank You.

Personally I'd say if one experiences unborn unity then it's definitely the moon. However, I appreciate that I might have seen Jupiter and be mistaking it for the moon. Regarding the language I just used; It's possible that my words can be picked apart and someone could say "you can't experience the unborn unity because you can't exist in that state". This, whilst somewhat valid, would be rather pedantic and unhelpful.

I consider my experience like so (please note! I'm not trying to describe the purity of the unmanifest (I'm not describing the actual fruit)):

It was "all at once". There were no prior intermediate stages like the different experiences that one might have over several years of practising meditation.
Ok! so if I can read about Jupiter and it's description fits my experience; then I'd be content to acknowledge my experience as Jupiter and not the moon.

From here I'd like directly enquire about the nature of Jupiter.

1. Could we class Nivanna as something other than the purity of Dzogchen?
2. Therefore could we put the purity of Dzogchen into the box "Moon" and Nivanna into the box "Jupiter" ?

./
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Re: Prevalance of the experience and some advanced questions

Postby garudha » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:39 am

Seishin wrote:Hi Garudha, there a couple of things that worry me here. 1; you say you have no knowledge of Buddhism and never met a Buddhist, yet you say Buddhism is sick. 2; you say you've experienced the "great perfection" yet you easily get angry and resort to personal attacks. The people who have posted so far are only trying to help.

I would also like to point out (as did Jikai) that we have rules on this forum. Please take time to read them before posting. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... ead#unread

Gassho,
Seishin


Yes, I'm not religious! Still I totally respect Buddhism and the teachings.

I'm not saying that "Buddhism is sick", far from it. I'm saying that too much chatter of the fruit without the practice of Buddhism is a sickness. Yes, It's totally ironic, and perhaps the folly is my own, that I even started this thread! Sorry. I think the Buddha said something like If you want to be a Buddhist then stop being a Buddhist !! LOL.

I will read the rules and try to adhear to them.
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