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 Post subject: LGBT In Lama
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:36 am 
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Hello all,

I have joined the forum because I have some very specific questions about the monastic life in Asia monastic orders. As a Buddhist myself and world traveller, I was very inspired after visiting China this past year. It confirmed my buddhist philosophy and quite honestly, I do believe that I have a calling to fulfill this life as a lama. However, I would like to know, is it a problem if I identify as a bisexual man? I have no homosexual mannerisms, however, I have a very liberal view on love and believe it transcends gender. Of course as a monk or lama, this wouldn't even matter as one must never even engage in sexuality. My question is, because I know many of these Asian countries are conservative, and even communist, in which country would I be most safe? As a western monk, I am sure that it is already dangerous. Nobody would necessarily know I was even bisexual, but I refuse to speak false words, and if one were to ever ask me about love and attraction, I would speak freely. It is my dream to go back to Tibet.

All comments are welcomed and VERY much appreciated...
J


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 Post subject: Re: LGBT In Lama
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:39 am 
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Why is this in the Dzogchen section?

but

Dear tibetanholyghost
If you are really committed to being a celibate monk, it might be better to stay out of Tibetan monastic institutions, particularly the larger ones. Also, Tibet is not a great place for foreigners to try to build a life.


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 Post subject: Re: LGBT In Lama
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:06 am 
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The naivete of this question rather makes we want to laugh. Go ask Ven. Indrajala a Canadian monk who has stayed in Chinese and Tibetan monasteries and knows much, many monks are not celebate and plenty are actively gay. I'm not condoning but people here who would be much more critical of Roman Catholic monks having money, girlfriends, boyfriends, no vocation go absolutely wobbly when it comes to Buddhist monastics, they have the same afflictions. It should not suprise anyone here; all humans have afflictions. Rev. Indrajala will tell you.
gassho
rory

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT In Lama
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:47 am 
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tibetanholyghost wrote:
Hello all,

I have joined the forum because I have some very specific questions about the monastic life in Asia monastic orders. As a Buddhist myself and world traveller, I was very inspired after visiting China this past year. It confirmed my buddhist philosophy and quite honestly, I do believe that I have a calling to fulfill this life as a lama. However, I would like to know, is it a problem if I identify as a bisexual man? I have no homosexual mannerisms, however, I have a very liberal view on love and believe it transcends gender. Of course as a monk or lama, this wouldn't even matter as one must never even engage in sexuality. My question is, because I know many of these Asian countries are conservative, and even communist, in which country would I be most safe? As a western monk, I am sure that it is already dangerous. Nobody would necessarily know I was even bisexual, but I refuse to speak false words, and if one were to ever ask me about love and attraction, I would speak freely. It is my dream to go back to Tibet.

All comments are welcomed and VERY much appreciated...
J
You don't have to be celibate to be a lama. During the (three year) retreat which is (at minimum) necessary for you to qualify as a lama you take a vow of celibacy and are expected to keep it. But once you finish your retreat... Monks are also expected to keep vows of celibacy. That means they are not allowed to have homo-/bi-/hetero-sexual sex. Buddhas teachings on right sexual behaviour do not categorise homosexuality and bisexuality as wrong sexual behaviour. But if you are a monastic...

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT In Lama
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:08 pm 
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Posts: 630
I think it is very important to distinguish between having a sexuality, and engaging it physically.
Certainly, there are Bisexuals who marry opposite sex individuals, and more commonly marry same
gender people-- but do not express the other polarity. And likewise, there are gay, bi and non-gay
people who are celibate. Sexuality, gender and sex are completely distinct things.

There are gay and/or bi monks. There are gay and/or bi ngakpas, There are also gay and/or bi
lay teachers of Buddhadharma. Some are out, some are closeted, and some in committed relationships.

If you would like to know some more famous ones, its no secret, but they might be somewhat private
about it.


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 Post subject: Re: LGBT In Lama
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:31 pm 
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Posts: 577
tibetanholyghost wrote:
Hello all,

I have joined the forum because I have some very specific questions about the monastic life in Asia monastic orders. As a Buddhist myself and world traveller, I was very inspired after visiting China this past year. It confirmed my buddhist philosophy and quite honestly, I do believe that I have a calling to fulfill this life as a lama. However, I would like to know, is it a problem if I identify as a bisexual man? I have no homosexual mannerisms, however, I have a very liberal view on love and believe it transcends gender. Of course as a monk or lama, this wouldn't even matter as one must never even engage in sexuality.



A lama is NOT necessarily also a monk. And a monk is not neccessarily a lama. A monk is someone who has taken the monastic vows, a lama is a person who is sufficiently qualified to teach buddhism.

Also, you don't practice buddhism to "become a lama". You practice because you want liberation for yourself and others. On that path at one point you might be in the position where you teach others and be a lama.

If you want to live as a monk it doesn't matter which sexual orientation you have.


If


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 Post subject: Re: LGBT In Lama
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:34 pm 
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Sherab Dorje wrote:
You don't have to be celibate to be a lama. During the (three year) retreat which is (at minimum) necessary for you to qualify as a lama...



One doesn't become a lama by doing a 3 year retreat.


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 Post subject: Re: LGBT In Lama
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:39 pm 
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theanarchist wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
You don't have to be celibate to be a lama. During the (three year) retreat which is (at minimum) necessary for you to qualify as a lama...



One doesn't become a lama by doing a 3 year retreat.
Depends on the lineage.

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT In Lama
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:41 pm 
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This might be relevant.

http://kalurinpochela.org/gays-lesbians ... -my-world/

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viewtopic.php?f=114&t=13727


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 Post subject: Re: LGBT In Lama
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:05 am 
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theanarchist wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
You don't have to be celibate to be a lama. During the (three year) retreat which is (at minimum) necessary for you to qualify as a lama...



One doesn't become a lama by doing a 3 year retreat.


Indeed. Credentialing a Lama takes a variety of forms. It involves a great deal of study, or retreat time, typically.
But you can never say for sure. Certainly a three year retreat is a common prerequisite, but many who complete
it do not become ordained as Lamas. The monastic orders often ordain Lamas after completion of an advanced
academic degree, some require subsequent retreat, some don't. Sometimes one's root lama will ask a student
to serve in the function of a Lama without either extensive study or retreat, but based on some degree of
realization alone. Sometimes tulkus require very little formal training... the permutations go on and on.


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 Post subject: Re: LGBT In Lama
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:17 am 
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If one is interested in being a monk it is important to know the tradition one wants to join. It is not a simple decision and from the context I have gathered from your question, you are not that familiar with Buddhism. I suggest you whole-heartedly study in the tradition that is best for you and then if you still feel like ordination is the path you want then go for it!


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 Post subject: Re: LGBT In Lama
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:07 pm 
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@ "theanarchist" and "ngodrup", I said, and I quote:
Quote:
which is (at minimum) necessary for you to qualify as a lama...
I just added the giant font to draw your attention to the important detail. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT In Lama
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:28 pm 
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As I understand it, you don't really get acredited as a Lama.
Even if you get all the teachings, retreats etc. I don't think 'Lama' is like a qualification as such.
It is what other people might call you if they regard you as a teacher. Yes you have to do the training, but if your teachers or anybody else don't call you lama at the end of all that, then I'm not sure a person can adopt that title by themselves. It must be given. (I think :? )

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT In Lama
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:23 am 
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Sherab Dorje wrote:
theanarchist wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
You don't have to be celibate to be a lama. During the (three year) retreat which is (at minimum) necessary for you to qualify as a lama...



One doesn't become a lama by doing a 3 year retreat.
Depends on the lineage.


One can become a lama by having a minimum of knowledge and realization. For example as far as I have heard Mingyur Rinpoche did his first three year retreat and then back to back a second one where he acted as the retreat master. Obviously after one three year retreat he qualified.

But not everyone who does a three year retreat automatically qualifies to be a spiritual guide for others.


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 Post subject: Re: LGBT In Lama
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:31 am 
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theanarchist wrote:
...But not everyone who does a three year retreat automatically qualifies to be a spiritual guide for others.
Depends on the lineage. Hey, are we repeating ourselves over and over?

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT In Lama
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:24 pm 
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Sherab Dorje wrote:
theanarchist wrote:
...But not everyone who does a three year retreat automatically qualifies to be a spiritual guide for others.
Depends on the lineage. Hey, are we repeating ourselves over and over?



It doesn't matter what lineage. Or do you seriously think that there is a lineage (Mmaybe a miracle lineage? Or a lineage where only people with incredibly good previous life experience practice?) where after three year retreats all participants always archieve enough realization to teach others? That's a bit megalomanic, don't you think...


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 Post subject: Re: LGBT In Lama
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:44 pm 
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theanarchist wrote:
It doesn't matter what lineage. Or do you seriously think that there is a lineage (Mmaybe a miracle lineage? Or a lineage where only people with incredibly good previous life experience practice?) where after three year retreats all participants always archieve enough realization to teach others? That's a bit megalomanic, don't you think...
You think I am making this stuff up as I go along? And where exactly is it written that one has to have realisation in order to be a lama? That's wishful thinking. Commendable, but wishful! You do know that people are accorded the title "lama" without even completing a three year retreat? Yes? You are aware of that?

Ever heard the saying: in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king?

Well, when the Dharma was reintroduced to Europe (the land of the blind), people completing a three year retreat (one-eyed men) were automatically given the title lama (made king) because in comparison to the rest of the population their level of knowledge (and realisation, just to keep you happy) made them a "superior", or "higher", or "upper" one (bla ma). No miracles there. No megalomania.

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT In Lama
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:22 pm 
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Sherab Dorje wrote:
theanarchist wrote:
It doesn't matter what lineage. Or do you seriously think that there is a lineage (Mmaybe a miracle lineage? Or a lineage where only people with incredibly good previous life experience practice?) where after three year retreats all participants always archieve enough realization to teach others? That's a bit megalomanic, don't you think...
You think I am making this stuff up as I go along? .



I don't know, then maybe there are traditions where indiscrinately everyone who finishes 3 years in retreat gets a teaching permit, no matter if they have the required realisation or not. I guess that falls under "degenerated age". :crazy:

I want a spiritual instructor who has a certain degree of realisation, not one that has a permit paper but no realization. What you describe is like getting a university degree after simply attending for three years, not after taking exams. Honestly I wouldn't want a surgeon who hasn't undergone some kind of exam to prove his ability operating on me .


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 Post subject: Re: LGBT In Lama
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:32 pm 
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You quite clearly have not listened to a single thing I have said and, what in tarnations is a "required realisation"?

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT In Lama
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:26 pm 
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Sherab Dorje wrote:
You quite clearly have not listened to a single thing I have said and, what in tarnations is a "required realisation"?


You are just repeating the same nonsense over and over, that attendingt a three year retreat automatically qualifies that person to be a lama/spiritual guide for others.


Required realization means that being a lama neccessarily requires a certain amount of realization in the practices. For example stability in compassion and bodhicitta, theoretical dharma knowledge, experiencial knowledge of the practices.

Doing a 3 year retreat is not an automatic guarantee that a person aquires this theoretical and practical knowledge and ability. I know someone who has done 2 three year retreats and he said, what became clear to him after those two retreats is how much he doesn't know.


Apparently you belong to that Gendun Rinpoche group, I have heard that they give out the title "lama" on wholesale.... Well, Gendun Rinpoche is now dead for quite a while and he has no way to keep an eye on what the people running the place nowadays are doing.


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