Guru Yoga Lucid Dream Practices?

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Guru Yoga Lucid Dream Practices?

Postby Ti-ti » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:27 pm

For any Dream Yoga practitioners in here... wondering if anyone has had any experience practicing Guru Yoga in the dream state?

I had a non-lucid dream a little over a month ago that was very similar to one of the Vajrasattva purification visualization methods (which strangely enough, I had never practiced in waking life before and only came upon afterwards). Since then, I've been trying to induce a Guru Yoga session lucidly with no luck.

It occurs to me guru yoga is perfect for practicing in the dream state, where you don't have to work to visualize the Buddhas or their mandalas.

I've been doing the standard dream yoga induction visualizations and trying to fall asleep on the mantra of a specific Buddha (eg. Vajrasattva, Green Tara) or the image of my own teacher, but no success yet (I'm in a lucid dreaming dry spell this month for some reason). :shrug:

Anyway! Would love to hear your techniques for practicing guru yoga in the dream state :smile:
Before Ninakawa passed away, master Ikkyu visited him. "Shall I lead you on?" Ikkyu asked.
Ninakawa replied: "I came here alone and I go alone. What help could you be to me?"
Ikkyu answered: "If you think you really come and go, that is your delusion. Let me show you the path on which there is no coming and no going."
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Re: Guru Yoga Lucid Dream Practices?

Postby tomamundsen » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:59 am

IME, it helps to be able to have lucid dreams in general. Then work on doing your practice in the dream. There are a lot of tips and methods in Tenzin Wangyal's Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep.
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Re: Guru Yoga Lucid Dream Practices?

Postby Ti-ti » Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:29 am

I agree Tom. I normally have about 1 lucid dream a week and dream recall of about 3 dreams a night. I've been doing the night practices of both Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche and ChNN for some time (eg. Multiplying dream elements, changing them to see their lack of reality, etc)... I've had some really luminous non-dual, clear light dream experiences too that were amazing... Just wanted to add a new practice to my arsenal of night time tools! :)
Before Ninakawa passed away, master Ikkyu visited him. "Shall I lead you on?" Ikkyu asked.
Ninakawa replied: "I came here alone and I go alone. What help could you be to me?"
Ikkyu answered: "If you think you really come and go, that is your delusion. Let me show you the path on which there is no coming and no going."
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Re: Guru Yoga Lucid Dream Practices?

Postby tomamundsen » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:47 am

Ti-ti wrote:I agree Tom. I normally have about 1 lucid dream a week and dream recall of about 3 dreams a night. I've been doing the night practices of both Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche and ChNN for some time (eg. Multiplying dream elements, changing them to see their lack of reality, etc)... I've had some really luminous non-dual, clear light dream experiences too that were amazing... Just wanted to add a new practice to my arsenal of night time tools! :)

Oh wow, yea I have no help to offer you haha. Would you mind elaborating on your experiences of clear light dreams? I don't really understand what they are even after reading TWR's book.
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Re: Guru Yoga Lucid Dream Practices?

Postby Sherlock » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:35 pm

Just keep on doing guruyoga in daily life. You might occasionally experience spontaneously doing it in dreams too -- this is similar in principle to MILD lucid dreams.
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Re: Guru Yoga Lucid Dream Practices?

Postby Ti-ti » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:31 pm

@Sherlock, Good thinking! Maybe even just a mini retreat would work (like doing Guru Yoga a bunch of times Saturday and Sunday) and put it in the forefront of the mind enough to induce it spontaneously.

@Tom, my dreams of clear light always happen in a similar way... I'm walking down the street, spontaneously realize I'm dreaming and stop to marvel at how "real" everything around me looks even though I made it all with my mind and karma. Then it all seems very funny and magnificent. At that point, I jump in the air close my eyes and float. When I close my eyes in the dream, I'm surrounded by glowing light that looks like an endless sunset. I have no body and it feels like there are no spacial constraints. In fact, it feels like I'm simultaneously a point of consciousness and the infinite, luminous space around the point. Hahaha, I hope that makes sense...

It is an extremely blissful state, you feel like you're smiling ear to ear with deep joy the whole time. Last time it happened, I had fallen asleep with a persistent, recurring shoulder pain and as I came out of the light of the dream it felt like I was smiling "into" my shoulder pain and it just dissolved as I woke up.

Haha, needless to say, I always try to remember to get back to that. It seems fairly simple though: Realize you're dreaming, marvel at how everything you see is made by your mind, then jump, close your eyes, and float! :twothumbsup:
Before Ninakawa passed away, master Ikkyu visited him. "Shall I lead you on?" Ikkyu asked.
Ninakawa replied: "I came here alone and I go alone. What help could you be to me?"
Ikkyu answered: "If you think you really come and go, that is your delusion. Let me show you the path on which there is no coming and no going."
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Re: Guru Yoga Lucid Dream Practices?

Postby Sherlock » Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:16 pm

Well, I don't know who your teacher is, but Chogyal Namkhai Norbu teaches his students in every retreat how to do guruyoga in daily life; you can do it while walking, in the shower, anywhere.
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Re: Guru Yoga Lucid Dream Practices?

Postby rubix » Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:37 pm

Ti-ti wrote:For any Dream Yoga practitioners in here... wondering if anyone has had any experience practicing Guru Yoga in the dream state?

I had a non-lucid dream a little over a month ago that was very similar to one of the Vajrasattva purification visualization methods (which strangely enough, I had never practiced in waking life before and only came upon afterwards). Since then, I've been trying to induce a Guru Yoga session lucidly with no luck.

It occurs to me guru yoga is perfect for practicing in the dream state, where you don't have to work to visualize the Buddhas or their mandalas.

I've been doing the standard dream yoga induction visualizations and trying to fall asleep on the mantra of a specific Buddha (eg. Vajrasattva, Green Tara) or the image of my own teacher, but no success yet (I'm in a lucid dreaming dry spell this month for some reason). :shrug:

Anyway! Would love to hear your techniques for practicing guru yoga in the dream state :smile:



A good technique that worked for me was one I heard about was finding a light switch to turn it on and the light doesn'tcome on as its a dream and tHus you realize your dreaming and state to go lucid. Another one is falling a sleeping with an intention to remind yourself that your dreaming when your sleep. I once brought practicing lucid dreaming to a specific area by bring intention earlier in the day to that place to go to to practice fly as I recognized the space I went lucid and practiced I did this for a week straight.

One of my experiences about a month ago of me aware while I was sleeping was when I seen a light dragon resting on my head was in the lights I had been seeing from thogal I tried talking to the dragon but it flew off and I woke up
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Re: Guru Yoga Lucid Dream Practices?

Postby Soap-Bubble » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:31 pm

Ti-ti wrote:@Tom, my dreams of clear light always happen in a similar way...

And then you go on to describe what is not a clear light dream, but what sounds to be an ordinary lucid dream experience. Please re-read the books you were reading to clarify for yourself what dreams of clear light actually are. There are ordinary dreams, lucid dreams, dreams of clarity, and clear light, all are different.

Even the title of the thread is misconstrued, guru yoga is not a lucid dream practice.

Please, don't take it as negativity or criticism, I am trying to help a fellow practitioner. It doesn't do one any good to be confused. My advice to you is to re-read the books to gain clearer understanding.
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Re: Guru Yoga Lucid Dream Practices?

Postby Ti-ti » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:51 pm

Soap-Bubble wrote:And then you go on to describe what is not a clear light dream, but what sounds to be an ordinary lucid dream experience. Please re-read the books you were reading to clarify for yourself what dreams of clear light actually are. There are ordinary dreams, lucid dreams, dreams of clarity, and clear light, all are different.


Hey Soap Bubble, the trouble with the relaxed nature of message boards means that not everything is immediately clear. I have studied dream yoga for some time and have skilled teachers. So I'm not confused. The clear light dream that I was describing above began as an ordinary lucid dream. In that you are right. But as part of my practice, after that I was able to shirk whatever karmic visions came up (eg. the elements of the street I was walking down).

The dream ended in a bright, womb-like non-dual experience of pure "resting in light", no action and no visions. A blissful and healing experience. It was not a dream of clarity, as I was not given any teachings or pure visions (though I have had such dreams before). Simply an experience of profound unity. It really doesn't help to go into the details here and argue about what is and what is not, but I have discussed this and other dreams with my teachers and do have an understanding of what the experiences were. (I didn't go into detail on this thread because they weren't pertinent to my question.)

Soap-Bubble wrote:Even the title of the thread is misconstrued, guru yoga is not a lucid dream practice.


I am also not confused about what guru yoga is. My point here, specifically, was that since guru yoga meditation is largely about feeling and visualizations, it makes sense that it would be increasingly beneficial in a dream scenario, where one doesn't have to work as hard to visualize things and can feel more acutely that it's all happening in a real way.

The differences between waking reality and dream reality are illusory and relative, so there is no reason why a practice that is normally done in the day cannot be done in equal manner at night. In fact, to extend any beneficial daytime practice into the night is extremely expedient.

I recognize that you're trying to be helpful, but you could do so simply by asking more questions that clarify the original poster's intent, rather than assuming they've got it all wrong. That's what a helpful teacher would do and we should always be trying to model our helpful and wise teachers more.

Best.
Before Ninakawa passed away, master Ikkyu visited him. "Shall I lead you on?" Ikkyu asked.
Ninakawa replied: "I came here alone and I go alone. What help could you be to me?"
Ikkyu answered: "If you think you really come and go, that is your delusion. Let me show you the path on which there is no coming and no going."
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Re: Guru Yoga Lucid Dream Practices?

Postby Soap-Bubble » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:28 pm

Who are the teachers you speak of that have personally evaluated your progress? I'd really like to know. It's hard to find such teachers nowadays.

You have to agree that your descriptions are very misleading, as you're describing something that really has no connection to the state of clear light. Feelings of unity, bliss, disappearance of all visions, etc., all of that are merely experiences. They can even happen in karmic lucid dreams, as well as in awaken state as result of non-buddhist meditation or drugs.

I recognize that you're trying to be helpful, but you could do so simply by asking more questions that clarify the original poster's intent, rather than assuming they've got it all wrong. That's what a helpful teacher would do and we should always be trying to model our helpful and wise teachers more.

I wasn't trying to teach you, as I'm not a guru, I was warning others to take your words with a grain of salt. Even if you do indeed have dreams of clear light, your descriptions are so misleading that someone else might assume wrongly what they (dreams of clear light) are.

Also your words don't seem to be words of a serious practitioner. I mean, who comes into the forum and asks random people for more "techniques"? Who provides descriptions like that at face value and for what reason, especially not realizing that they're misleading?

And it's not like I'm some kind of police, but in some cases it's hard to remain silent. Sometimes I feel that this is unproductive and I can handle hurting people's feelings if I feel that it's for the best.
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Re: Guru Yoga Lucid Dream Practices?

Postby Ti-ti » Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:22 am

Soap-Bubble wrote:Also your words don't seem to be words of a serious practitioner. I mean, who comes into the forum and asks random people for more "techniques"?


The internet is a terrible vehicle for learning anything about anyone. That my practice is a serious one doesn't require proof to strangers on the internet. The motivation behind my original post was that I was new to this particular forum, so I thought I'd strike up a conversation with other people who practice dream yoga to see who/what was kicking around Dharmawheel. I was curious to see what other people's night time practices were like, because every person makes it their own, and that interests me. You'll notice I mentioned in my original post that I was having a lucid dreaming dry spell that month and I thought a conversation about it might knock something loose.

I've reread my posts and yes, I was careless in my wording. I didn't go into detail or watch my words carefully. That's because I wasn't asking for advice or giving any... I just wanted a relaxed conversation. Forums shouldn't be anyone's primary source of information. I find many people on Dharmawheel take themselves too seriously, are too quick to argue, and tensions run extremely high, which is not a recipe for good Dharma practice. So in response, I was tending towards the casual. I'm genuinely sorry if that was misleading for you.

Similarly, do me the favor of rereading your posts. They definitely read like someone who assumes and judges harshly instead of trying to make a genuine personal connection with a bodhichitta motivation. To insult me about what my personal practice sounds like to you, a stranger on the internet who doesn't know anything about me, doesn't help anyone attain enlightenment.

But our karmas are linked, you and me... and this interaction shows that both of us have built up the negative potential to experience interpersonal friction... on a forum about Dharma no less! How ironically samsaric! Hopefully we've both burnt that off and never experience it again.

How many times have I been your mother? How many times have you been mine?
I'm sorry to have met under these circumstances.
Before Ninakawa passed away, master Ikkyu visited him. "Shall I lead you on?" Ikkyu asked.
Ninakawa replied: "I came here alone and I go alone. What help could you be to me?"
Ikkyu answered: "If you think you really come and go, that is your delusion. Let me show you the path on which there is no coming and no going."
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Re: Guru Yoga Lucid Dream Practices?

Postby Vasana » Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:59 am

Good post, and a good dialogue in the thread.

Familiar with calling the guru from afar ?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/179314578/Cal ... m-Afar-pdf

There is another 'calling the guru' composed by Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche i will try and find.

From my own personal experience, regularly asking/praying for guidance before you go to sleep has been of immense benefit to my dream yoga practice (which as you say, is really just a continuation of daily practice and shouldn't be seen as different)

It has also been useful for me, requesting and inviting embodiments and emanations of beings who embody supreme wisdom-compassion/Bodhichiitta that are able to guide and teach you in any way ,for the benefit of all beings. There are countless beings who are able to abide and travel between the various Bardos,or astral plane (depending on which language we prefer) and many of them have the ability/siddhi to know what we are dreaming about and many of them can manifest occurrences and enhance certain aspects of our mind's which can manifest situations within the dream. So long as our intention and motivation is clear, and the wording we use for our guidance-request is correctly spoken, it doesn't take too long (although circumstances vary) until you can begin receiving direct mind to mind guidance, although there can sometimes be connectivity and receptivity problems.

I have more success with the dream yoga practice when asking that any latent and present afflictions are continually bought in to awareness within the dream states and i also tend to have more success when asking if there is any suffering and present afflictions i should be aware with, presently occurring within any other people i know or have met in my life ( even if the only thing i can do afterwards is supplicate a 4 immeasurables prayers for and to them ....**note to 'self' - practice Lojong in dreams and after waking! **
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Re: Guru Yoga Lucid Dream Practices?

Postby Ti-ti » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:39 pm

Vasana wrote:From my own personal experience, regularly asking/praying for guidance before you go to sleep has been of immense benefit to my dream yoga practice (which as you say, is really just a continuation of daily practice and shouldn't be seen as different)

It has also been useful for me, requesting and inviting embodiments and emanations of beings who embody supreme wisdom-compassion/Bodhichiitta that are able to guide and teach you in any way ,for the benefit of all beings. There are countless beings who are able to abide and travel between the various Bardos,or astral plane (depending on which language we prefer) and many of them have the ability/siddhi to know what we are dreaming about and many of them can manifest occurrences and enhance certain aspects of our mind's which can manifest situations within the dream. So long as our intention and motivation is clear, and the wording we use for our guidance-request is correctly spoken, it doesn't take too long (although circumstances vary) until you can begin receiving direct mind to mind guidance, although there can sometimes be connectivity and receptivity problems.


Good point! I like that approach a lot actually. It's a subtle but salient difference from mantra/visualizations, in which you're essentially working to make it all feel real with mental images. The act of asking/praying/inviting immediately turns the practice into a dialogue with an already assumed being. That could have the psychological effect of cutting past the "pretending" stage and jumping straight into a real feeling of the presence of other beings. For example, if I "know" you're in the other room, I don't need to visualize you sitting over there before calling out to you... the act of just "knowing" it makes the 'you-that's-sitting-over-there' much more salient and real in the mind.

And thanks for the book recommendation! I've heard of those books, but never had a chance to check them. I'll give them a read....
Before Ninakawa passed away, master Ikkyu visited him. "Shall I lead you on?" Ikkyu asked.
Ninakawa replied: "I came here alone and I go alone. What help could you be to me?"
Ikkyu answered: "If you think you really come and go, that is your delusion. Let me show you the path on which there is no coming and no going."
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Re: Guru Yoga Lucid Dream Practices?

Postby oldbob » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:51 am

:namaste:

All good posts! :good: :good: :good:

More books:

http://www.amazon.com/Dream-Yoga-Practi ... 1559391618

http://shangshung.org/store/index.php?m ... cts_id=656

http://shangshung.org/store/index.php?m ... yword=katz

My 2 cents: If you imagine a sleepy red Tibatan ah syllable at the throat, before going to sleep, and then relax into sleep, it may help.

Try the one in the center:

https://www.google.com/search?q=tibetan ... 276%3B1034

money-back guarantee. :smile:

ob
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Re: Guru Yoga Lucid Dream Practices?

Postby kvy » Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:48 pm

Am new to the Dream Yoga practice, which I received from my Lama.

But my understanding is that the point is to liberate phenomena, both day and dream, into the Clear Light. Doing Guru Yoga in the dream may be helpful, but not necessary as Rigpa is the Ultimate Guru, and the point is to recognize in the dream state.

So to set that goal of doing some formal Guru Yoga practice in the dream state may be a diversion if in fact, you are already recognizing the Nature of Mind there.

Just a thought!
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Re: Guru Yoga Lucid Dream Practices?

Postby Sherlock » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:15 am

The real point of Guru Yoga is to be in the same state as the guru i.e. Rigpa.

So there is not any difference.
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Re: Guru Yoga Lucid Dream Practices?

Postby thigle » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:45 am

Sherlock wrote:The real point of Guru Yoga is to be in the same state as the guru i.e. Rigpa. So there is not any difference.


So, if a tantric preliminary practice like Guru Yoga = Dzogchen Menngagde, there's no need for a "direct introduction" into the "natural state" for you, because your Guru Yoga "leads" directly to the "natural state"? Or are you already temporary in the "natural state" while practicing Guru Yoga? If so, there's naturaly no need for "Guru Yoga", but for an decision/trekchö. Maybe it's better not to mix up everything. Tantra is Tantra. Dzogchen is Dzogchen. I think this is the wrong subforum for this and many other topics here.
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Re: Guru Yoga Lucid Dream Practices?

Postby Sherlock » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:27 pm

Guruyoga is not just a tantric preliminary at least not the way ChNN teaches it.
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