Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow body[?]

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby Guty » Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:12 pm

smcj wrote:
From certain perspective, deception that is aimed at ultimately changing the perception from gross materialistic to subtle spiritual, may and often do involve such lies.

Maybe so, maybe not. 100 years ago man walking on the moon was a much much more preposterous idea.

As Shakespeare said,

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

I do not believe in space aliens, but I could be wrong about that.
I advise others that do not believe in mahasiddhas to make the same concession.



I know exactly what you mean, I largely agree, but regarding mahasiddhas, I sincerely need to say that stopping the Sun on the sky for example has a lot to do with the viewer's perception than with Sun's, Earth's or other planet's orbits.
- La Esperanza es para la gente que vive sin Gracia -
- Hope is for people, who do not yet live in Grace -
Guty
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:13 pm

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby smcj » Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:14 pm

I know exactly what you mean, I largely agree, but regarding mahasiddhas, I sincerely need to say that stopping the Sun on the sky for example has a lot to do with the viewer's perception that with Sun's, Earth's or other planet's orbits.

Hard to argue with that!
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
smcj
 
Posts: 2088
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby Guty » Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:16 pm

Pero wrote:
Guty wrote:Well, that's exactly the subtle point.. there is no human conscience anymore

What?


Buddhas and completely realized persons have conscience of buddhas and realized persons.
- La Esperanza es para la gente que vive sin Gracia -
- Hope is for people, who do not yet live in Grace -
Guty
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:13 pm

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby dmr82 » Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:57 pm

Guty wrote:And had he really demonstrated the act of power such as legendary mahasiddhas allegedly did, I would definitely like to hear this person's explanations on the nature of reality and do the background check on his credibility and perhaps exclude all possibilities that this person is not a village escamoteur.


You think these are ordinary members of society and you can communicate with them on a rational level? Nothing could be further from the truth. They appear and disappear as they wish. As for you wanting to hear accurate explanations on the nature of reality you can get that from any one of the lamas holding authentic transmissions. But if you want magic, work for it. There's no other way.

Milarepa said it best: "Although my bones have pierced my flesh on this cold stone I have persevered".

That really seals it.
dmr82
 
Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:38 pm

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby Guty » Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:38 pm

dmr82 wrote:
Guty wrote:And had he really demonstrated the act of power such as legendary mahasiddhas allegedly did, I would definitely like to hear this person's explanations on the nature of reality and do the background check on his credibility and perhaps exclude all possibilities that this person is not a village escamoteur.


dmr82 wrote:You think these are ordinary members of society and you can communicate with them on a rational level? Nothing could be further from the truth. They appear and disappear as they wish. As for you wanting to hear accurate explanations on the nature of reality you can get that from any one of the lamas holding authentic transmissions. But if you want magic, work for it. There's no other way.


Yes, and so does Santa Claus and Mary Poppins. These stories are transfered from dozens of generations of which each one adds something on the story so eventually, you are left with nothing verifiable, except the pure core of the liberating teaching itself - even that is often left badly damaged, full of mistranslations and so on. Religious folks are the worst from the worst in reinterpreting the original sources of information. You will see, if you will ever care to investigate, that the historical backgrounds of many religious events is unverifiable and often in favor of the skeptical premise, that there never was this and that person, never happened this and that miraculous even, or that some place as told by ancients, never existend historically. You are left to manage these discrepancies on your own so you have to rely up on what's within the reach of your own perception; taking anything for granted unless you as an organic being have no good reason or supporting facts at hand for it, is simply speaking hipocritical or just naive, although maybe religiously correct. With this type of credulity you are left in danger to falling prey to whichever shameless self-important crook that you will encounter on your path. I am telling you, you as a practitioner of the highest vehicle you need to reconsider and distinguish fairytales from factual information; the liberating instructions are completely independent from any form of assumptions or need of a mythical belief structure, that often leads one into utter confusion and errors in discrimination between realities of its kind and illusions. And - even if you ever witnessed a kind of event that the most people affected by religious paradigm would consider miraclous - how would you be able to tell the difference from something that you would see under hypnotic suggestion of let's say type of what Derren Brown does with his experimental subjects? And then, what is more probable - that miracles happened all the time in the oriental past, but not today; OR that many of these accounts originate from people, who are more credulous than an everage well founded man equipped with common sense and average intelligence, who knows the ways around human willingness to believe in irrational and glorious deeds of superhumans? Please, review for yourself, what everything is possible under hypnosis, a simple bloody stupid hypnosis.. Do you honestly believe that in ancient times there were no hypnotists and they only appeared from thin air in the 20th century? Why would you need to believe so? I am not trying to tell you that Tilopa did not eat the fish and then reanimated it and threw back into the river, I am telling you, that is the witness testimony you know NOTHING about.
- La Esperanza es para la gente que vive sin Gracia -
- Hope is for people, who do not yet live in Grace -
Guty
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:13 pm

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby dmr82 » Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:33 pm

This is one of the reasons siddhis are displayed by realized beings.

Not only does it shut up the seemingly rational mind, it also humbles the recipient.

That is if you even dare approach such a being and put your sanity on the line.
dmr82
 
Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:38 pm

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby Guty » Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:44 pm

The knowledge of one's own nature is the biggest siddhi.
You don't need to fool yourself with stupidities as turning water into wine and similars.
- La Esperanza es para la gente que vive sin Gracia -
- Hope is for people, who do not yet live in Grace -
Guty
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:13 pm

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby dharmagoat » Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:52 pm

Guty wrote:The knowledge of one's own nature is the biggest siddhi.
You don't need to fool yourself with stupidities as turning water into wine and similars.

What would Jesus do?
May all beings be happy
dharmagoat
 
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:39 pm
Location: Gone Bush

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby dmr82 » Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:03 pm

Guty wrote:The knowledge of one's own nature is the biggest siddhi.


Siddhis are displays of wisdom manifesting to tame sentient beings.

Knowledge of one's own nature is what is discovered in rigpa.

Sentient beings can get into this knowledge through direct introduction yet they can't display siddhis at all.

Only realized beings can do this.

So two completely different things.
dmr82
 
Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:38 pm

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby Guty » Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:26 pm

dharmagoat wrote:
Guty wrote:The knowledge of one's own nature is the biggest siddhi.
You don't need to fool yourself with stupidities as turning water into wine and similars.

What would Jesus do?


If you see someone leaving imprints of his palms or feet in the solid granite rock, what will you conclude? Given that all available handprints in rock left by whoever important from ancient history to the recent times look entirely unrealistically and suspiciously even for a 5 year old child.. I tell you what - you can be certain of one thing, and that is that "you have seen something", you have had a perception, but you will not know what you have seen. With 100% accuracy I can assure you, you have been under influence of a specific hypnotic trans with incepted ideas about what were you about to see. And unless you would come back some time later and saw the imprint still intact, you can't dismiss the possibility, that you were tricked. This can be achieved with quite basic knowledge of NLP today, but with a difference, that today it takes one to be a complete moron (or just uninformed) to believe that it was a miracle. Honestly, I used to believe in this crap myself, but I deconstructed it eventually all and found the conclusion. These accounts and relics are baseless and have no inherent integrity after being closely examined. If it creates some positive efect.. (I am not sure if I know of one) I wouldn't think so, since weakening of critical thinking only produces fanatical conditioning. Look at all the religions, what an incredible plague of human race, how enormously detrimental effect on DNA of affected nations and lowering of intelligence. And it is only due to uncritical reception of ancestral stories full of unverifiable fairytales on the basis of inheritance from father to son. That is why, we need the most secular and clean dzogchen, and perhaps whole vajrayana, cause these impurities later cause decomposition and degeneration of teachings and fall into superstition. Lineages tend to get interrupted, because people are being lead astray by secondary issueas, miracles, lights, feelings and sensations, instead of remaining focused in the sanity of the clear grounded mind.
- La Esperanza es para la gente que vive sin Gracia -
- Hope is for people, who do not yet live in Grace -
Guty
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:13 pm

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:40 pm

Guty wrote:If you see someone leaving imprints of his palms or feet in the solid granite rock, what will you conclude? Given that all available handprints in rock left by whoever important from ancient history to the recent times look entirely unrealistically and suspiciously even for a 5 year old child.. I tell you what - you can be certain of one thing, and that is that "you have seen something", you have had a perception, but you will not know what you have seen. With 100% accuracy I can assure you, you have been under influence of a specific hypnotic trans with incepted ideas about what were you about to see.


I used to have a dog.
Her name was Dot.
When she peed, she was able to write her name in the snow.

Your only gripe, really, is that granite is harder than snow.
.
.
.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
 
Posts: 2845
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby dharmagoat » Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:44 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:I used to have a dog.
Her name was Dot.
When she peed, she was able to write her name in the snow.

I had a cat like that. Its name was Puddles.

(I should really say something on-topic...)
May all beings be happy
dharmagoat
 
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:39 pm
Location: Gone Bush

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby Guty » Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:10 am

Why do people love and believe in miracles? Why are they willing to die defending the most annoying, preposterous, stupidest stories in the world?
Because belief in miraculous persons gives them hope that their becoming and their doing, their conceptual minds based in hope, that future will bring something exceptional tomorrow and that one day will become "somebody special". It is an opiate. It helps escape reality that is too boring for dreamers. When you get rid of becoming and establish yourselves in reality, you'll see that these are redundant and toxic and help keeping minds in the loop of becoming. Once you find out you can't ever become anything else than you already are, the demand for the miraculous falls off.
- La Esperanza es para la gente que vive sin Gracia -
- Hope is for people, who do not yet live in Grace -
Guty
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:13 pm

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby Sherab » Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:33 am

Guty, have you seen first hand those little pearl like things and coloured bead-like stuff leftover from the cremation of a person? If no, do you believe that they are real?
User avatar
Sherab
 
Posts: 770
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:28 am

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby smcj » Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:38 am

Guty wrote:Why do people love and believe in miracles? Why are they willing to die defending the most annoying, preposterous, stupidest stories in the world?
Because belief in miraculous persons gives them hope that their becoming and their doing, their conceptual minds based in hope, that future will bring something exceptional tomorrow and that one day will become "somebody special". It is an opiate. It helps escape reality that is too boring for dreamers. When you get rid of becoming and establish yourselves in reality, you'll see that these are redundant and toxic and help keeping minds in the loop of becoming.

So that's why you're interested in RB?

Once you find out you can't ever become anything else than you already are, the demand for the miraculous falls off.

My understanding of Dharma is that 'what you already are' is a fiction superimposed on 'what you REALLY are'. And in order to experience it you need to change. If you do not see that as possible then you have already defeated yourself.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
smcj
 
Posts: 2088
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby Guty » Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:44 am

Sherab wrote:Guty, have you seen first hand those little pearl like things and coloured bead-like stuff leftover from the cremation of a person? If no, do you believe that they are real?


I heard about this phenomenon, it is called ringsel, but I have no real information about it, I certainly have not seen it personally. And I will appreciate any further usueful intel. Sure, if it is a factual phenomenon and can be demonstrated, I will not hesitate to admit its substance. It is not like I need to convince anybody about supposed material nature of the world :) However, I can't see the mechanism how is ringsel formed and what are the conditions for its forming (well some things come into mind but let's give a thing a benefit of a doubt untill it is completely dismissed...)
- La Esperanza es para la gente que vive sin Gracia -
- Hope is for people, who do not yet live in Grace -
Guty
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:13 pm

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby pensum » Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:49 am

Sherab wrote:Guty, have you seen first hand those little pearl like things and coloured bead-like stuff leftover from the cremation of a person? If no, do you believe that they are real?


Of course, ringsel are real (i personally possess one). The issue is whether, beyond the faith of a believer, their generation is caused by anything unique or special; for they would seem to be nothing more than kidney stones, gall stones and the like. For comparative evidence see https://sites.google.com/site/philosophydude/sariras.html.
pensum
 
Posts: 354
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:12 pm

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby Sherab » Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:58 am

Guty wrote:
Sherab wrote:Guty, have you seen first hand those little pearl like things and coloured bead-like stuff leftover from the cremation of a person? If no, do you believe that they are real?


I heard about this phenomenon, it is called ringsel, but I have no real information about it, I certainly have not seen it personally. And I will appreciate any further usueful intel. Sure, if it is a factual phenomenon and can be demonstrated, I will not hesitate to admit its substance. It is not like I need to convince anybody about supposed material nature of the world :) However, I can't see the mechanism how is ringsel formed and what are the conditions for its forming (well some things come into mind but let's give a thing a benefit of a doubt untill it is completely dismissed...)

I asked this because it is something that cannot be adequately explained under our current knowledge. I have personally witnessed the cremation of a high lama and personally seen the ringsels nearing the end of the cremation process i.e., the burning was still on-going, but ending. I have personally seen the heart, eye-ball and tongue that were left over after the cremation although logically, such organic stuff should have been consumed by the fire longer ago. I don't believe in miracles but I do believe that there can be unexplained phenomena.

And of course, the obligatory rainbow was there as well. :D
Last edited by Sherab on Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Sherab
 
Posts: 770
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:28 am

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby Sherab » Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:10 am

pensum wrote:
Sherab wrote:Guty, have you seen first hand those little pearl like things and coloured bead-like stuff leftover from the cremation of a person? If no, do you believe that they are real?


Of course, ringsel are real (i personally possess one). The issue is whether, beyond the faith of a believer, their generation is caused by anything unique or special; for they would seem to be nothing more than kidney stones, gall stones and the like. For comparative evidence see https://sites.google.com/site/philosophydude/sariras.html.

No they are not kidney stones. The ringsels can form any where, inside the bones and even on the cremation structure. I have personally seen ringsels that were formed on the ledge of the "windows" of the cremation structure.

In addition, there was nun who was a close student of the high lama. She was given a piece of the lama's bone. The bone subsequently broke by itself into three pieces, revealing images of deities within them.

Ringsels also continued to be produced from the relics collected.

My point to Guty is that just because a phenomena such as a rainbow body cannot be explained does not render it unbelievable.

There are stories that strained one's credulity such as stopping the sun etc. and I too would take them as such, i.e. stories. But I don't think the rainbow body phenomena belong to that category, and it is a mistake to lump them together. There are just too many reported cases of rainbow body and only one or two stories of someone stopping the sun.
User avatar
Sherab
 
Posts: 770
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:28 am

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby pensum » Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:12 am

Sherab wrote: I have personally seen the heart, eye-ball and tongue that were left over after the cremation although logically, such organic stuff should have been consumed by the fire longer ago. I don't believe in miracles but I do believe that there can be unexplained phenomena.


This too is easily explained as any Western cremation technician or funeral director can tell you . A minimum temperature, which is quite high, must be maintained for a certain period of time to incinerate the majority of the body: bones, organs etc. (modern cremation chambers can reach 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit or 1093 degrees Celsius). The variations in composition of the various matters, such as density, moisture content etc. mean that different elements have different temperatures and rates of combustion. The brain, tongue, heart and eyeballs all have very high moisture content which must be evaporated before they are dry enough to be incinerated to ash. Add to this the fact that the brain is contained within the skull, the heart in the centre of the body surrounded by other organs, so that they are protected until the rest of the corpse's matter has been consumed. Fueled by wood, temperatures are inconsistent in traditional Tibetan cremations, therefore it is not uncommon that the heart, brain, eyes and tongue remain.
If you are interested here is an explanation of the modern cremation process: http://science.howstuffworks.com/cremation2.htm
pensum
 
Posts: 354
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:12 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Dzogchen

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: lorem and 17 guests

>