Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow body[?]

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Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby Guty » Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:08 pm

dmr82 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:...they prevent people from claiming total buddhahood in absence of such demonstrable abilities.

Even if such abilities are real, they are mundane, having nothing to do with actually gaining realization.


You are contradicting yourself. First you say realized beings can demonstrate them, then you say having them has nothing to do with having realization. Also there is nothing mundane about them as sentient beings can't display them except through fakery and deception.

since we have quackery and deception, we do not need to presuppose real siddhi as factual - unless they are demonstrable.
It is not I am saying that but himself mahasiddha Ockhampa
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Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:18 pm

dmr82 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:...they prevent people from claiming total buddhahood in absence of such demonstrable abilities.

Even if such abilities are real, they are mundane, having nothing to do with actually gaining realization.


You are contradicting yourself. First you say realized beings can demonstrate them, then you say having them has nothing to do with having realization. Also there is nothing mundane about them as sentient beings can't display them except through fakery and deception.



Well, actually, you have to accept that they are mundane because Buddhists and Hindus like are supposed to be able to manifest them with sufficient practice of Samadhi.

None of these powers are transcendent in the least.

What I am suggesting is that placing such impossible expectations on what can be expected of a realized individual makes it easy to spot fakes. For example, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu has said that if anyone of his students can place his hand in fire without beings harmed, ChNN would like to have that person as his teacher. Otherwise, he said, don't call yourself realized if you do not have power over the elements.

Of course, the problem with this is that Hindus sages, etc., also claim to have power over the elements and so on.

Thus, these things, power over the elements, the ability to swim through the earth, fly in the sky and so on, are a common stock set of magical abilities common in India literature. We need not take them literally any more than we take Meru literally. The pursuit of such abilities will not lead us to liberation, Buddha was exceptionally clear about this.

M
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Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby dmr82 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:32 pm

Malcolm wrote: For example, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu has said that if anyone of his students can place his hand in fire without beings harmed, ChNN would like to have that person as his teacher. Otherwise, he said, don't call yourself realized if you do not have power over the elements.


Glad you confirmed ChNNR believes the abilities manifest as sign of having power over the elements.

That's all the confirmation I needed.
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Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:50 pm

dmr82 wrote:
Malcolm wrote: For example, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu has said that if anyone of his students can place his hand in fire without beings harmed, ChNN would like to have that person as his teacher. Otherwise, he said, don't call yourself realized if you do not have power over the elements.


Glad you confirmed ChNNR believes the abilities manifest as sign of having power over the elements.

That's all the confirmation I needed.


Just bring a fire extinguisher in case your samadhi is not up to par.
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Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby Guty » Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:55 pm

I can't cite the source at the moment, but I read in Yoga Vasistha some time ago, that "flying through the air" is not possible for human beings physically and that by this term is meant a symbolic expression for mental projections out of one's body and flying through the mental space. Which really makes much more sense and also that the scriptural accounts are nothing but exaggerations and mistranslations.
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Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby smcj » Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:00 pm

Guty wrote:I can't cite the source at the moment, but I read in Yoga Vasistha some time ago, that "flying through the air" is not possible for human beings physically and that by this term is meant a symbolic expression for mental projections out of one's body and flying through the mental space. Which really makes much more sense and also that the scriptural accounts are nothing but exaggerations and mistranslations.

I've had Tibetan lamas tell me it is physically possible, but it takes 20 years of intense practice to accomplish. One told me that in Tibet you'd see lamas flying on occasion, and it wouldn't spark much interest. But in pre-PRC Tibet, when they would see an airplane (probably supplying China in WWII from India), they'd all freak out.
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Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby Guty » Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:23 pm

smcj wrote:
Guty wrote:I can't cite the source at the moment, but I read in Yoga Vasistha some time ago, that "flying through the air" is not possible for human beings physically and that by this term is meant a symbolic expression for mental projections out of one's body and flying through the mental space. Which really makes much more sense and also that the scriptural accounts are nothing but exaggerations and mistranslations.

I've had Tibetan lamas tell me it is physically possible, but it takes 20 years of intense practice to accomplish. One told me that in Tibet you'd see lamas flying on occasion, and it wouldn't spark much interest. But in pre-PRC Tibet, when they would see an airplane (probably supplying China in WWII from India), they'd all freak out.


Very unlikely, I do not buy it for a moment, even though I believe they told you this and that they themselves believe it and that they were told that it is possible. I also believe that there was no direct witness, but inherited indirect testimony from the traditional folklore. Centuries add up quite a lot garbage on top of the original stories. - I will tell you my experience: At one point in my life, many many years ago I had a relation with a girl from an unspecified ethnic background. It took about half a year untill we broke up from natural causes and because of social incompatibilities of our families. My family was strictly against, cause this violated everything socially acceptable and because of extreme pressure our relation broke eventually. But it was a romantic relation :smile: The small native town where I lived at that time and where I was born knew everything so the news that this guy from a good family had a relation with someone from unacceptable social background spread like a wildfire. Some years later when I have already forgotten about this whole thing I unexpectedly met a former schoolmate whome I haven't seen since we finished school. To my big surprise, he educated me about my life, that he knew I married a girl from ethn ically unacceptable social background and that we had a big family, many kids and allegedly lived in the nearby town. This distortion of what allegedly happened against what really happened is just a small demonstration how folklore processes events and how people add on top of what they heard some small amount of lie, assumption, belief, imagination and prejudgement, so eventually the original event is almost unrecognizable...
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Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby tatpurusa » Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:59 pm

by the way, does anyone know how he does this?
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Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:01 pm

The point of this thread, i think, is to determine whether rainbow body (and by extension, any extraordinary phenomena) can be scientifically validated, and that means repeated in blind case studies and so forth.
It is very easy to fake miracles. So, even internet videos (or perhaps especially internet videos) need careful scruitiny.

But, when the extraordinary becomes common, and can be repeated, then there is some sense of validation. And what I am specifically thinking about is the ability to smash through bricks and things which is a commonplace demonstration in the martial arts. We can understand the physics behind being able to push the edge of your hand through a cinder block, because the speed of force counters the fact that cinder blocks are hard and out hands are fleshy and easily broken. These days, people glide through the air in suits that mimic the body of a flying squirrel. What is unbelievable quickly becomes believable when an explanation is given, which is compatible with our understanding of how things actually work. The problem is that before adequate research can be done, the miraculous events are consumed in a whirlwind of fakes and hucksters, and 99% of investigations turn out to be hearsay, anecdotal reports or just lies. We never find out how some of these amazing feats actually work, and thus, whether they are real or not.

As long as one is not basing their course of action, their Dharma practice ... or medical needs, for example, on unsubstantiated claims, then little harm is done. The dangers arise when people find causes for either ailments or for their cures, which do not actually exist, or practice dharma with the goal of someday being able to float in the air.

One thing I have always found amusing is that so very often 'spiritual' people condemn "western scientific thinking" as being close-minded, but the moment a research facility publishes the findings of a scientific study that supports something like the benefits of meditation on the brain, or whatever, those very same people wave that study around as validation.

I have a friend who is an artist and he says a painter only creates half of the picture
...the viewer paints the other half.
I think there is a lot of truth to this.
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Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:07 pm

Guty wrote:...the scriptural accounts are nothing but exaggerations and mistranslations.


They might be exaggerations, but they are not mistranslations.

Refer to the Vibhuti chapter of the Yoga sutras. Flying, for example, is the result of attaining power of the udaṇā vayu, etc.
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Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby heart » Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:10 pm

Guty wrote:Very unlikely, I do not buy it for a moment, even though I believe they told you this and that they themselves believe it and that they were told that it is possible. I also believe that there was no direct witness, but inherited indirect testimony from the traditional folklore.


You know flying in the sky and stuff like that are only relative siddhi's anyway. But what I find very difficult to believe is when you actually say you are having the ultimate siddhi's like you do here:

Guty wrote:I need no approach and I do not expect anything, there is no suffering, these things completely fell off two years ago. There are no more processes but gazing and abidance.

My seeking ended 18 years ago. I am finalizing the path shortly.


And about your teachers.

Guty wrote:OK then, briefly: I had 5 of them of which 3 had a real power to initiate, one is a friend of mine and other one is my wife. Two of them had realizations of similar kind as Jigdral Jeshe Dorje. I was doing informal anuyoga and guruyoga practice from the begining after his death, that allowed me to understand the primordial state. Later this type of devotion fell of all by itself.


How do you know what realization Dudjom Rinpoche had? Is this something you wife claim or what? You do realize he died 27 years ago not 18 years ago.


/magnus
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Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:12 pm

tatpurusa wrote:by the way, does anyone know how he does this?

Really?
Maybe he studied WWF Championship Wrestling.
It takes some people years of rehearsing to be able to do stuff like this!!
I would like to see this demonstration documented by something a bit more objective than the
"Pathgate Institute" itself.
With all due respect, there is nothing as unreliable as the "proof" of something
... when it is offered by the one selling it.
.
.
.
Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby Guty » Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:18 pm

Malcolm wrote: What I am suggesting is that placing such impossible expectations on what can be expected of a realized individual makes it easy to spot fakes. For example, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu has said that if anyone of his students can place his hand in fire without beings harmed, ChNN would like to have that person as his teacher. Otherwise, he said, don't call yourself realized if you do not have power over the elements. M

Very interesting but it sounds like a test. I have many experiences with my guru, who did such things, he actually was the most incomprehensible person I ever knew. Paradoxical to the limitations of human comprehension. You wouldn't really have any reference point when he was testing you and when not. Eventually, you would understand, the whole relation was a great test and his mundane and seemingly unimportant statements transform your life directly. Testing all the time, putting you into intellectually unsolvable situations in your life solving of which makes you abandon conceptual patterns of your mind. He taught by manipulating disciples into situations they could not escape from, he was truly above all duality. He consistently did what you least expected, in many respects, he strived to exhaust your ability to think in certain terms, all he wanted was to make you understand that there was no room for an individual or what this individual believed. All he was interested was to completely destroy the background from which the virtual individuality arises. His means to achieve this were utterly paradoxical and controversial. He took a lot of my obscurations with him when he left this world as the last benediction and I never had an opportunity to thank him enough while he was alive. (I do not exactly understand how this happened, but nor do I believe this was a miracle - I only have suspicions which I will rather not express loudly..) - But where I am trying to get with this is, that there are no clear distinctions when enlightened beings test disciples and when they don't. And, maybe their all activity is absolutely beyiond any deliberate intention, completely spontaneous, while at the same time perfectly in line with momentary needs of disciples and people surrounding them.
Last edited by Guty on Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby Motova » Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:19 pm

tatpurusa wrote:by the way, does anyone know how he does this?
Lama Dondrup Dorje




That bald guy looks like he is having too much fun. :jumping: :rolling:
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Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby heart » Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:27 pm

Guty wrote:
Malcolm wrote: What I am suggesting is that placing such impossible expectations on what can be expected of a realized individual makes it easy to spot fakes. For example, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu has said that if anyone of his students can place his hand in fire without beings harmed, ChNN would like to have that person as his teacher. Otherwise, he said, don't call yourself realized if you do not have power over the elements. M

Very interesting but it sounds like a test. I have many experiences with my guru, who did such things, he actually was the most incomprehensible person I ever knew. Paradoxical to the limitations of human comprehension. You wouldn't really have any reference point when he was testing you and when not. Eventually, you would understand, the whole relation was a great test and his mundane and seemingly unimportant statements transform your life directly. Testing all the time, putting you into intellectually unsolvable situations in your life solving of which makes you abandon conceptual patterns of your mind. He taught by manipulating disciples into situations they could not escape from, he was truly above all duality. He consistently did what you least expected, in many respects, he strived to exhaust your ability to think in certain terms, all he wanted was to make you understand that there was no room for an individual or what this individual believed. All he was interested was to completely destroy the background from which the virtual individuality arises. His means to achieve this were utterly paradoxical and controversial. He took a lot of my obscurations with him when he left this world as the last benediction and I never had an opportunity to thank him enough while he was alive. (I do not exactly understand how this happened, but nor do I believe this was a miracle - I only have suspicions which I will rather not express loudly..) - But where I am trying to get with this is, that there are no clear distinctions when enlightened beings test disciples and when they don't. And, maybe their all activity is absolutely beyiond any deliberate intention, completely spontaneous, while at the same time perfectly in line with momentary needs of disciples and people surrounding them.


And who is this?
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Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby tatpurusa » Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:30 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
tatpurusa wrote:by the way, does anyone know how he does this?

Really?
Maybe he studied WWF Championship Wrestling.
It takes some people years of rehearsing to be able to do stuff like this!!
I would like to see this demonstration documented by something a bit more objective than the
"Pathgate Institute" itself.
With all due respect, there is nothing as unreliable as the "proof" of something
... when it is offered by the one selling it.
.
.
.


Yeah, that's what I think too. I would just like to know if there is someone more familiar with this lama and his organisation.
In one of these videos he calls Penor Rinpoche his root guru.
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Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby heart » Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:38 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
tatpurusa wrote:by the way, does anyone know how he does this?

Really?
Maybe he studied WWF Championship Wrestling.
It takes some people years of rehearsing to be able to do stuff like this!!
I would like to see this demonstration documented by something a bit more objective than the
"Pathgate Institute" itself.
With all due respect, there is nothing as unreliable as the "proof" of something
... when it is offered by the one selling it.
.
.
.


Yeah, that's what I think too. I would just like to know if there is someone more familiar with this lama and his organisation.
In one of these videos he calls Penor Rinpoche his root guru.


One of the most obvious fakes I ever seen if you ask me.

/magnus
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Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby smcj » Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:19 pm

Very unlikely, I do not buy it for a moment, even though I believe they told you this and that they themselves believe it and that they were told that it is possible.

Oh I wasn't trying to convince you of the reality of it, just that when they talk about lamas flying they are not speaking figuratively.

There was a funny moment when yangsi Kalu R. was here in L.A. Somebody was talking about some retreat land in Canada, and that HH Karmapa XVI had flown over it before they bought it to check it out. The young Kalu R. was a little startled at first because it was not made clear to him that HHK flew over the land in an airplane, as in "He flew over it???" A humorous moment.
Last edited by smcj on Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby Guty » Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:24 pm

smcj wrote:
Very unlikely, I do not buy it for a moment, even though I believe they told you this and that they themselves believe it and that they were told that it is possible.

Oh I wasn't trying to convince you of the reality of it, just that when they talk about lamas flying they are not speaking figuratively.

There was a funny moment when yangsi Kalu R. was here in L.A. Somebody was talking about some retreat land in Canada, and that HH Karmapa XVI had flown over it before they bought it to check it out. The young Kalu R. was a little startled because at first it was not made clear to him that HHK flew over the land in an airplane, as in "He flew over it???" A humorous moment.


Absolutely! :rolling: I can imagine the situation pretty vividly. Thanks for sharing this anecdote.
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Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby dharmagoat » Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:34 pm

tatpurusa wrote:by the way, does anyone know how he does this?

He doesn't, his disciples do.

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