In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:06 pm

conebeckham wrote:As I understand the terms, cause is a necessity, while a condition supports...

For example, a seed is the cause of a tree, while water, light, soil are conditions that support the result, tree. One needs both, but the result will not occur, even if the conditions exist, if there is no cause.


That's exactly how ChNN explains it.
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:06 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:Per Garfield:

When Nagarjuna uses the word "cause" (hetu [rGyu]), he has in mind an event or state that has in it a power(kriya[Bya Ba]) to bring about its effect, and has that power as part of its essence or nature (svabhava [Rang bZhin]). When he uses the term "condition" on the other hand (pratyaya [rKyen]), he has in mind an event, state, or process that can be appealed to in explaining another event, state, or process, without any metaphysical commitment to any occult connection between explanandum and explanans.

Thanks. I must say that I find the distinction between having a power and being something that can be "appealed" to a bit arbitrary.
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:08 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:Per Garfield:

When Nagarjuna uses the word "cause" (hetu [rGyu]), he has in mind an event or state that has in it a power(kriya[Bya Ba]) to bring about its effect, and has that power as part of its essence or nature (svabhava [Rang bZhin]). When he uses the term "condition" on the other hand (pratyaya [rKyen]), he has in mind an event, state, or process that can be appealed to in explaining another event, state, or process, without any metaphysical commitment to any occult connection between explanandum and explanans.

Thanks. I must say that I find the distinction between having a power and being something that can be "appealed" to a bit arbitrary.


Conebeckham has just given a very clear illustration of the difference.
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:11 pm

conebeckham wrote:As I understand the terms, cause is a necessity, while a condition supports...

For example, a seed is the cause of a tree, while water, light, soil are conditions that support the result, tree. One needs both, but the result will not occur, even if the conditions exist, if there is no cause.

Yes, but I've always found this distinction somewhat arbitrary. I don't see why in the familiar example of the seed, the conditions are not also causes. Even if the cause, i.e. the seed, is present, without the other conditions the result will not occur either, so what is the difference? I don't know much about philosophy, but maybe this is related to the found kinds of causes that Aristotle mentions.
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby Sönam » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:12 pm

You can create causes, but it can take many lifes before the conditions are present for the effect to ripen ... This is the exemple of the seed and the water (light, and so on).

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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby Sönam » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:17 pm

In case of DI, there is no cause, but without the condition of the master, DI is not possible (or mostly improbable) ...
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby heart » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:34 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:I'm not sure if that's what you're asking about, Magnus, but Sonam is relying here on the terminology used by for instance Jay Garfield in his translations of Nagarjuna. In ChNN's parlance, Garfield's 'causes' (Skt. hetu) are primary causes and 'conditions' (Skt. pratyaya) secondary causes.

See pages 103 and following here:

http://books.google.pl/books?id=54kV38Q ... es&f=false


Thank you!

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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby pueraeternus » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:52 pm

Sönam wrote:This is not a spin, it's how it's generally examined (causes give effects when conditions, causes are not conditions) ... but if you like to satisfy yourself pretending that Dzogchen is identical to any other yana, fine. Dzogchen practitioners are used to it ... be happy.


Oh it is a spin, because it can also be applied to the other yanas. And I have never said Dzogchen is identical, since all the yanas obviously have their own features, but they all lead to the final end-result.

Dzogchen practitioner? So am I.
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby Virgo » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:50 pm

pueraeternus wrote:Dzogchen practitioner?

You know that Sonam (Serge) is a Dzogchen practitioner.

Kevin
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:57 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:...to the found kinds of causes that Aristotle mentions.

Oops, I just noticed my typo. I meant four kinds of causes.
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby T. Chokyi » Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:07 pm

Sönam wrote: In case of DI, there is no cause


Maybe I am misinterpreting this sentence, but I believe there is a cause that creates the conditions to experience DI with CHNN or other masters, whether DI "takes" right away, well, CHNN says not to worry so much about that.

Malcolm wrote:
As noted, meeting the teachings depends on meritorious causes. Liberation however does not.




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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby pueraeternus » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:33 am

Virgo wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:Dzogchen practitioner?

You know that Sonam (Serge) is a Dzogchen practitioner.

Kevin


Yes I do know. Which is why I wrote "So am I" after that..
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby Sönam » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:39 am

pueraeternus wrote:
Sönam wrote:This is not a spin, it's how it's generally examined (causes give effects when conditions, causes are not conditions) ... but if you like to satisfy yourself pretending that Dzogchen is identical to any other yana, fine. Dzogchen practitioners are used to it ... be happy.


Oh it is a spin, because it can also be applied to the other yanas. And I have never said Dzogchen is identical, since all the yanas obviously have their own features, but they all lead to the final end-result.

Dzogchen practitioner? So am I.


Of course they all lead to the same fruit, it's Buddha's dharma ... just a question of time and capacity

Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby Sönam » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:45 am

T. Chokyi wrote:
Sönam wrote: In case of DI, there is no cause


Maybe I am misinterpreting this sentence, but I believe there is a cause that creates the conditions to experience DI with CHNN or other masters, whether DI "takes" right away, well, CHNN says not to worry so much about that.



Of course, speaking about "introduced" ... recognizing

Sönam
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby Sönam » Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:34 pm

further ...

The very first condition in the cause/effect relation (karma) is ignorance, not recognizing ... Therefore, eradication of ignorance put an end to effect ripenning. This is Liberation from the causal chain.

"The liberation of samsara as the non-existent in true nature ('Khor-Ba Rang-bZhin Med-Pa) is the attainment of the vision of nirvana, because samsara is nothing else than mind"
- Longchem Rabjam - Shingta Chenpo -


Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby thigle » Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:18 am

Wayuu wrote:I already did one direct introduction through webcast with Namkhai Norbu,


A "direct introduction" into what? The "natural state"? Really? If so, there's no need from itself for "rituals", because you're a "sotāpanna".
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby asunthatneversets » Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:29 pm

thigle wrote:
Wayuu wrote:I already did one direct introduction through webcast with Namkhai Norbu,


A "direct introduction" into what? The "natural state"? Really? If so, there's no need from itself for "rituals", because you're a "sotāpanna".

Yes direct introduction to your nature. And rituals, or whatever other method one wants to use to familiarize with that nature is an indispensable aspect of the teaching.
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby thigle » Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:47 am

asunthatneversets wrote:
thigle wrote:
Wayuu wrote:I already did one direct introduction through webcast with Namkhai Norbu,


A "direct introduction" into what? The "natural state"? Really? If so, there's no need from itself for "rituals", because you're a "sotāpanna".

Yes direct introduction to your nature. And rituals, or whatever other method one wants to use to familiarize with that nature is an indispensable aspect of the teaching.


What "rituals/rites" you use "to familiarize" with primordially natural "knowledge/transparency"? I'm asking this question, because if "knowledge/transparency" was de facto even only temporarily self-obvious, one knows that neither rites/rituals nor anything other "practice" and reified "non-practice" can be used to "familiarize" with "knowledge/transparency". Before one knows this, it's necessary to "practice" everything, but that's preliminary exercises. Of course, if "knowledge/transparency" is self-obvious, one can dance in a circle and cry: hum hum", because of whatever, but in such a case, there's no grasping. In such a case, it's a possible expression of "knowledge/transparency".


[sry for my bad english]
Last edited by thigle on Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:40 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby Sönam » Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:01 am

asunthatneversets wrote:...
And rituals, or whatever other method one wants to use to familiarize with that nature is an indispensable aspect of the teaching.


It does not sound very dzogchen at all ... maybe TB conceptualizations?

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby asunthatneversets » Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:17 pm

Sönam wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:...
And rituals, or whatever other method one wants to use to familiarize with that nature is an indispensable aspect of the teaching.


It does not sound very dzogchen at all ... maybe TB conceptualizations?

Sönam

TB?
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