In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby Ivo » Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:44 am

heart wrote:
Don't worry about being offensive, I am used to it. I have even been accused of joining Dzogchen Community so I could easier criticize ChNNR then (not sure how that would work). Lets just say you "missed" a lot of heated discussions on this subject while you were away.

/magnus


Haha, this is very funny!!! :rolling:
It is actually an honor for me to know you, even if it turns out that you are actually here to destroy the real Dzogchen tradition once and for all... (we can join forces) :D :twothumbsup:
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby pueraeternus » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:37 am

Sönam wrote:Therefore, some may encounter dzogchen teachings and receive DI and realize their true nature after having practiced any of 8 yanas, without any real relation. Others may encounter Dzogchen without having practiced other yanas.


Or perhaps that most encounter dzogchen after diligent practice in the other yanas, probably for many lives, and due to their ripeness was successfully introduced to their natural state. Like Namkhai Norbu RInpoche, like our very own Namdrol.
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby pueraeternus » Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:03 am

Malcolm wrote:It is pretty straightforward: you need to have interest, diligence, etc., for direct introduction to be of any real use. If you have interest, diligence, etc., it undoubtedly works. These eight indriyas beginning with sraddha are path dharmas yes? Since this is so, they are necessary for being on a path, even a Dzogchen path. Also this was never disputed.


Oh, these indriyas are path dharmas indeed, and even considering the five powers, all of them have to be present and more or less equally balanced (granted the slight variance depending if one is sraddhnusarin or dharmanusarin). So saying that with devotion direct introduction will always be successful is rather misleading, don't you think? Of all the indriyas, prajna is probably a better candidate if we were to favour any of them.

Malcolm wrote:Direct introduction is what it claims to be: a direct introduction to your own state of liberation. You have always had that state, otherwise, you could not be introduced to it. This is why the state of liberation itself is not produced from causes -- it is innate. If it were not innate, if it were something created from causes and conditions, it would be perishable, and therefore, Buddhahood would be something temporary, part of the six lokas

I do not dispute this. Such an idea is found in the earliest strata teachings on nirvana and (later on) tathagatagarbha (the uncompounded, unconditioned, uncreated, etc), so I don't think its really that groundbreaking.

Malcolm wrote:The path of Dzogchen is exactly what it claims to be: a path upon which there is no progress since the state of liberation is introduced to oneself from the start; the sole stage since all living beings are on it; the result that does not arise from a cause, etc.


The result that does not arise from a cause, except that you do need the eight indriyas? If the result really does not arise from a cause, then even sraddha won't be needed?

Malcolm wrote:If you want to understand Dzogchen concretely, you need to study and practice Dzogchen.

I did (study) and I still do (erm, more or less) .
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby Sönam » Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:23 pm

pueraeternus wrote:
Sönam wrote:Therefore, some may encounter dzogchen teachings and receive DI and realize their true nature after having practiced any of 8 yanas, without any real relation. Others may encounter Dzogchen without having practiced other yanas.


Or perhaps that most encounter dzogchen after diligent practice in the other yanas, probably for many lives, and due to their ripeness was successfully introduced to their natural state. Like Namkhai Norbu RInpoche, like our very own Namdrol.


Nyingma's 9 yanas lam-rim theory ... mind concept

Sönam

(... and conditions are not causes)
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby heart » Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:19 pm

Sönam wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:
Sönam wrote:Therefore, some may encounter dzogchen teachings and receive DI and realize their true nature after having practiced any of 8 yanas, without any real relation. Others may encounter Dzogchen without having practiced other yanas.


Or perhaps that most encounter dzogchen after diligent practice in the other yanas, probably for many lives, and due to their ripeness was successfully introduced to their natural state. Like Namkhai Norbu RInpoche, like our very own Namdrol.


Nyingma's 9 yanas lam-rim theory ... mind concept

Sönam

(... and conditions are not causes)


It is funny, but that statement actually feels very limited Sonam.

/magnus
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby Sönam » Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:50 pm

heart wrote:
Sönam wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:
Or perhaps that most encounter dzogchen after diligent practice in the other yanas, probably for many lives, and due to their ripeness was successfully introduced to their natural state. Like Namkhai Norbu RInpoche, like our very own Namdrol.


Nyingma's 9 yanas lam-rim theory ... mind concept

Sönam

(... and conditions are not causes)


It is funny, but that statement actually feels very limited Sonam.

/magnus


it's just an answer to pueraeternus' presupposition ...

Sönam
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:09 pm

pueraeternus wrote: prajna is probably a better candidate if we were to favour any of them.


They are actually progressive in the beginning, one builds on the last.

Malcolm wrote:Direct introduction is what it claims to be: a direct introduction to your own state of liberation. You have always had that state, otherwise, you could not be introduced to it. This is why the state of liberation itself is not produced from causes -- it is innate. If it were not innate, if it were something created from causes and conditions, it would be perishable, and therefore, Buddhahood would be something temporary, part of the six lokas

I do not dispute this. Such an idea is found in the earliest strata teachings on nirvana and (later on) tathagatagarbha (the uncompounded, unconditioned, uncreated, etc), so I don't think its really that groundbreaking.


The difference between sutra and tantra is empowerment. There is no direct introduction in Sutra. There are also important differences in terms of how the result is contextualized in sutra and tantra in general, and dzogchen specifically.

Malcolm wrote:The path of Dzogchen is exactly what it claims to be: a path upon which there is no progress since the state of liberation is introduced to oneself from the start; the sole stage since all living beings are on it; the result that does not arise from a cause, etc.


The result that does not arise from a cause, except that you do need the eight indriyas? If the result really does not arise from a cause, then even sraddha won't be needed?


The eight indriyas do not produce the result. For example, gold is present in ore. But you still may need to process the gold with mercury and other substances in order to extract it. You would never say the gold was the result of the process, merely that the process is used to extract it. Likewise, in Dzogchen the path is used merely to extract the result, but you never say that the path produces the result. Indeed, not is the path taken as the result, as in the path of transformation, the result is the path.


I did (study) and I still do (erm, more or less) .


Then it is important to be clear about the six special features of Dzogchen teachings:

The result does not arise from a cause.
Intimate instructions do not depend on texts.
Buddhahood is not found in the mind.
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby pueraeternus » Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:53 pm

Sönam wrote:(... and conditions are not causes)


You can say the same thing about all other Buddhist vehicles, including the Sravakayana, since nirvana is also described as noncreated, unborn, etc. The path (marga) never causes the result (nirvana), but merely leads to it.
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby pueraeternus » Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
They are actually progressive in the beginning, one builds on the last.


Of course, as per all path doctrines, so there is no difference at this stage to other yanas.


Malcolm wrote:The difference between sutra and tantra is empowerment. There is no direct introduction in Sutra. There are also important differences in terms of how the result is contextualized in sutra and tantra in general, and dzogchen specifically.


But the end result is still the same. From another angle, the sutra could be seen as easier, since it does not require empowerment nor direct introduction. Of course, teachings and guidance on the path by enlightened teachers and Buddhas are still needed to learn the path.

Malcolm wrote:The eight indriyas do not produce the result. For example, gold is present in ore. But you still may need to process the gold with mercury and other substances in order to extract it. You would never say the gold was the result of the process, merely that the process is used to extract it. Likewise, in Dzogchen the path is used merely to extract the result, but you never say that the path produces the result. Indeed, not is the path taken as the result, as in the path of transformation, the result is the path.


But even in the Sravakayana, the path is never taken as "producing" the result - the path leads to the city of Nirvana; it doesn't build it. Granted, in these yanas, the paths are not the result, unlike say Chan, Mahamudra and Dzogchen (i.e. the self-avowed Sudden Schools).


The result does not arise from a cause.
Intimate instructions do not depend on texts.
Buddhahood is not found in the mind.


I am aware of this. It is so like Chan.
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:24 pm

pueraeternus wrote:
But the end result is still the same. From another angle, the sutra could be seen as easier, since it does not require empowerment nor direct introduction. Of course, teachings and guidance on the path by enlightened teachers and Buddhas are still needed to learn the path.



If you consider three incalculable eons "easier


But even in the Sravakayana, the path is never taken as "producing" the result - the path leads to the city of Nirvana; it doesn't build it.


The key distinction here is qualities. Buddhahood is not merely pacification of affliction as in Sravkayāna.


The result does not arise from a cause.
Intimate instructions do not depend on texts.
Buddhahood is not found in the mind.


I am aware of this. It is so like Chan.
[/quote]

There are some superficial similarities, but Chan does not have direct introduction, since it is sutra path.

M
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby pueraeternus » Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:If you consider three incalculable eons "easier"


Once you reach the 1st bhumi its not so bad. It's certainly easier to get onboard. Don't have to worry about joining your guru in hell if he/she happens to be (tragically) flawed, or the other numerous infractions.

Malcolm wrote:
But even in the Sravakayana, the path is never taken as "producing" the result - the path leads to the city of Nirvana; it doesn't build it.


The key distinction here is qualities. Buddhahood is not merely pacification of affliction as in Sravkayāna.


I was just using the Sravakayana as an example. Consider the same for the other Mahayana vehicles.


Malcolm wrote:

I am aware of this. It is so like Chan.


There are some superficial similarities, but Chan does not have direct introduction, since it is sutra path.


Whatever.
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby smcj » Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:40 am

The difference between sutra and tantra is empowerment. There is no direct introduction in Sutra.

Now you tell me. I was floundering a while back on another thread trying to come up with a definition of "tantra". Bingo!
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby Sönam » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:06 am

pueraeternus wrote:
Sönam wrote:(... and conditions are not causes)


You can say the same thing about all other Buddhist vehicles, including the Sravakayana, since nirvana is also described as noncreated, unborn, etc. The path (marga) never causes the result (nirvana), but merely leads to it.


Effects depend on causes ... when conditions are present. Causes and conditions are not the same, causes lead to effect, not conditions. There could be conditions without causes. In Di, the master is a condition, not a cause.

Sönam
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby pueraeternus » Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:08 pm

Sönam wrote:Effects depend on causes ... when conditions are present. Causes and conditions are not the same, causes lead to effect, not conditions. There could be conditions without causes. In Di, the master is a condition, not a cause.


Even if you want to spin it this way, I can easily apply such "creative accounting" to the other yanas (as per my examples above).
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby Sönam » Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:11 pm

pueraeternus wrote:
Sönam wrote:Effects depend on causes ... when conditions are present. Causes and conditions are not the same, causes lead to effect, not conditions. There could be conditions without causes. In Di, the master is a condition, not a cause.


Even if you want to spin it this way, I can easily apply such "creative accounting" to the other yanas (as per my examples above).


This is not a spin, it's how it's generally examined (causes give effects when conditions, causes are not conditions) ... but if you like to satisfy yourself pretending that Dzogchen is identical to any other yana, fine. Dzogchen practitioners are used to it ... be happy.

Sönam
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby heart » Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:02 pm

Sönam wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:
Sönam wrote:Effects depend on causes ... when conditions are present. Causes and conditions are not the same, causes lead to effect, not conditions. There could be conditions without causes. In Di, the master is a condition, not a cause.


Even if you want to spin it this way, I can easily apply such "creative accounting" to the other yanas (as per my examples above).


This is not a spin, it's how it's generally examined (causes give effects when conditions, causes are not conditions) ... but if you like to satisfy yourself pretending that Dzogchen is identical to any other yana, fine. Dzogchen practitioners are used to it ... be happy.

Sönam


You got any source for that Sönam?

/magnus
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:43 pm

I'm not sure if that's what you're asking about, Magnus, but Sonam is relying here on the terminology used by for instance Jay Garfield in his translations of Nagarjuna. In ChNN's parlance, Garfield's 'causes' (Skt. hetu) are primary causes and 'conditions' (Skt. pratyaya) secondary causes.

See pages 103 and following here:

http://books.google.pl/books?id=54kV38Q ... es&f=false
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:58 pm

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the difference between a cause and a condition?
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:02 pm

Per Garfield:

When Nagarjuna uses the word "cause" (hetu [rGyu]), he has in mind an event or state that has in it a power(kriya[Bya Ba]) to bring about its effect, and has that power as part of its essence or nature (svabhava [Rang bZhin]). When he uses the term "condition" on the other hand (pratyaya [rKyen]), he has in mind an event, state, or process that can be appealed to in explaining another event, state, or process, without any metaphysical commitment to any occult connection between explanandum and explanans.

You can read it in his translation of MMK (Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way, see the link I posted above), but it's also here:
http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/Nag ... rising.htm
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Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

Postby conebeckham » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:04 pm

As I understand the terms, cause is a necessity, while a condition supports...

For example, a seed is the cause of a tree, while water, light, soil are conditions that support the result, tree. One needs both, but the result will not occur, even if the conditions exist, if there is no cause.
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