A Question Concerning Universally Applicable Doctrines

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A Question Concerning Universally Applicable Doctrines

Postby ijaceebo » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:07 pm

Hi there everyone! I'm new here and just learning. And I apologize if this is not the correct place to ask this although I feel it is.
Out of genuine curiosity and certainly not doubt (I am too ignorant of the subject matter), what ways would the contents of the below link from wikipedia differ from Dzogchen? I know nothing about Dzogchen so I would be very interested to know. My question arises from a thread here in which the following statements were said:

Malcolm wrote:There is in fact no true standard set of Buddhist doctrines that universally apply to all instances of what we call Buddhism.


Malcolm wrote:


That works if you are a Theravadin or Mahāyāni, it does not work so well if you are a Dzogchenpa.


As I said, I would love to know how Dzogchen is so different in regards to a set of standards that may be universally applicable to all instances of Buddhism.

Thank you for your time. :namaste:
Namo Amida Butsu
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Re: A Question Concerning Universally Applicable Doctrines

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:18 pm

It's not. Some (a few) people within a certain organisation like (for personal reasons) to think it is. Most dzogchenpa practice (effectively) within traditional Buddhist and Bon frameworks.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: A Question Concerning Universally Applicable Doctrines

Postby Simon E. » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:52 pm

ijaceebo wrote:Hi there everyone! I'm new here and just learning. And I apologize if this is not the correct place to ask this although I feel it is.
Out of genuine curiosity and certainly not doubt (I am too ignorant of the subject matter), what ways would the contents of the below link from wikipedia differ from Dzogchen? I know nothing about Dzogchen so I would be very interested to know. My question arises from a thread here in which the following statements were said:

Malcolm wrote:There is in fact no true standard set of Buddhist doctrines that universally apply to all instances of what we call Buddhism.


Malcolm wrote:


That works if you are a Theravadin or Mahāyāni, it does not work so well if you are a Dzogchenpa.


As I said, I would love to know how Dzogchen is so different in regards to a set of standards that may be universally applicable to all instances of Buddhism.

Thank you for your time. :namaste:

I have PM'd you...
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Re: A Question Concerning Universally Applicable Doctrines

Postby Sönam » Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:33 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:It's not. Some (a few) people within a certain organisation like (for personal reasons) to think it is. Most dzogchenpa practice (effectively) within traditional Buddhist and Bon frameworks.


This is not a dzogchenpa's answer ... Simon's answer would certainly be more accurate.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: A Question Concerning Universally Applicable Doctrines

Postby ngodrup » Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:28 pm

According to the Nyingma 9 vehicle system, each vehicle has its own
base path and fruit. Philosophically, at least, no lam.rim is implied--
if you are at the base of a particular vehicle-- have that level of capacity--
then you can practice that path. Realistically, we all live with some degree
of conventional or duality reality. Therefore, we will practice whatever
preliminaries prescribed by our root lama and follow whatever ethics,
view, meditation and activity implied. Mahayanists, for example, practice
based loosely on core ethics but with Mahayana view that takes into
consideration intention. They do not necessarily practice exactly following
Hinayana. Lower and higher tantra do the same, but from the distinct
perspective of the particular tantra. The same would apply to Dzogchen.
So no universal doctrine.

But-- my Lama used to say-- the only person he ever heard of who realized
dzogchen without preliminaries, accumulation of merit and wisdom, etc.
was Garab Dorje! If we're realistic and honest with ourselves, then there's
something to do in the domain of the relative.
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Re: A Question Concerning Universally Applicable Doctrines

Postby smcj » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:27 am

But-- my Lama used to say-- the only person he ever heard of who realized
dzogchen without preliminaries, accumulation of merit and wisdom, etc.
was Garab Dorje! If we're realistic and honest with ourselves, then there's
something to do in the domain of the relative.

There's another perspective that says the accumulations of merit and wisdom are always present, but sometimes unseen since they have carried over from a previous lifetime. So the "spontaneous" Dzogchen/Mahamudra type experiences do have a history, only it is hidden from normal view.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: A Question Concerning Universally Applicable Doctrines

Postby ngodrup » Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:50 am

smcj wrote:
But-- my Lama used to say-- the only person he ever heard of who realized
dzogchen without preliminaries, accumulation of merit and wisdom, etc.
was Garab Dorje! If we're realistic and honest with ourselves, then there's
something to do in the domain of the relative.

There's another perspective that says the accumulations of merit and wisdom are always present, but sometimes unseen since they have carried over from a previous lifetime. So the "spontaneous" Dzogchen/Mahamudra type experiences do have a history, only it is hidden from normal view.


That would be how someone like Garab Dorje realized it. Of course! this lifetime is nobody's first.
Likewise, we cannot assume that those past lifetimes were replete with meritorious deeds and vast purification.
To think so is skillful means, like remembering that all beings have been our kindest mother, but it is equally
probable that they have also been our murderer, and we have been their murderer as well.

The point is its all too easy to assume that we are more sublime than we are-- at the relative level. We overestimate
and underestimate most of the time based on belief in a self and conditioned habits of egocentricity-- arrogance and
self deprecation. If we saw clearly, all the time, there would be no need for practice. This conversation is exactly why
there is no universally applicable approach, because its pretty easy to see, if we're honest with ourselves, that each individual
circumstance and capacity differs. Some people's perception is quite on target, while others perception is quite obscured.
Each will enter Buddhist practice a a different place. Some may well require the most basic beginner's vehicle before
even recognizing the truth of suffering. Others can begin immediately with some Maha or Anu yoga-- probably fewer--
as these were intended for royalty. How many are actually at the base of being able to immediately understand and apply
Dzogchen? Of course it happens. The two are not contradictory points of view.
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Re: A Question Concerning Universally Applicable Doctrines

Postby Sönam » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:20 pm

ngodrup wrote: .... How many are actually at the base of being able to immediately understand and apply
Dzogchen? Of course it happens. The two are not contradictory points of view.


The point is that most of the time if you encounter dzogchen and (actual) dzogchen masters it is because you have been in contact in a previous life (it's in your continuum) ... it is the great perfection as such, and that's why it's so simple and so complex at the same time, and many (outsiders) cannot get it as it is ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: A Question Concerning Universally Applicable Doctrines

Postby ngodrup » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:00 pm

Yes, yes. It's true that Dzogchen is both the easiest and hardest.
Even Lamas like ChNNR will admit that they didn't get it initially.
Read Dudjom Rinpoche's Biogoraphy, Milarepa's, Longchenpa's, Dilgo Khyentse's...
we see it over and over again. If it is bot easy for them, why should
we think it should be easy for us? It *becomes* easy.

But this is an aside. The question remains what view, meditation and action
is universally applicable? The answer is that it's quite uncertain, contingent on
the needs, interests and capacities of the individual.
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Re: A Question Concerning Universally Applicable Doctrines

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:15 am

ijaceebo wrote:... how Dzogchen is so different in regards to a set of standards that may be universally applicable to all instances of Buddhism.

According to the Kunche Gyälpo, it is free from the defect of causality.
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Re: A Question Concerning Universally Applicable Doctrines

Postby smcj » Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:18 am

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:According to the Kunche Gyälpo, it is free from the defect of causality.

a.k.a. it is transcendent.


Sorry, that's the troll in me coming out. :stirthepot:
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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